Session Time: Fri Jan 22 00:00:00 2010 00:04] hmm, should you be able to use abilities that don't cost food, if you're starving? 00:04] yes, please 00:04] MarvinPA: Can't you already? 00:04] nope 00:04] I dislike the whole no spellcasting while starving thing. 00:04] can't use decomposition or sunlight while starving 00:05] Hm. 00:07] * Kyrris has joined ##crawl-dev 00:16] * Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:30] Mu_! :D 00:39] dueey 00:40] did the logs stop logging? 00:40] Doy is here, so I don't think so 00:40] but Freenode was doing the hula-hoops last night 01:02] * ogaz has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 01:07] * sorear has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 01:11] Demonspawn can get both Ice facets. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=504) by Kyrris 01:14] * Jampy has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:30] * sorear has joined ##crawl-dev 01:30] * ChanServ sets mode: +v sorear 01:57] Wb, sorear. 01:59] * scarf has joined ##crawl-dev 02:01] Oh, scarf = ais523? 02:01] yes 02:05] !tell doy Love the new Lair. (My first proper play-through.) 02:05] due: OK, I'll let doy know. 02:13] Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2572-g256b3fc (16.1)! 02:14] now we'll see how it goes. Since you spend 1-1.5k turns per level on the average, it's very easy to reach 3k turns. And elf knights on D:1 mean we'll be reverting this part rather soon. 02:14] Elf knights on D:1? 02:14] Is that even possible? 02:15] I sense pessimism. 02:15] Well, if it needs to be reverted, hit me up. 02:15] But it'd be easier to just update nad recompile than to revert CDO, I think? Napkin? 02:15] Back in the good old days you could get yaktaur captains on D:1. 02:15] !messages 02:15] (1/1) due said (10m 34s ago): Love the new Lair. (My first proper play-through.) 02:15] mmh? 02:15] (: 02:15] * sorear sobs for the 0.1 OOD system 02:16] due: it's not going to affect anyone who plays the game normally 02:16] Napkin: Is it easy to shift all the save-games down a version if we run into troubles? 02:16] as we're seeing now, nerfing oods was a mistake 02:16] doy: I honestly didn't think so, but half the time I hav eno idea whether or not people are voicing serious concenrs or not. 02:16] no, it's not "easy" 02:16] but doable 02:16] if people save their games 02:16] Napkin: Yeah, okay, so easier to just revert the change in trunk and then recompile and shift everyone up? :) 02:17] ood spawns were one of the most depressing nerfs in stone soup anyway, in my opinion 02:17] indeed :) 02:17] so... let them whine 02:17] (: 02:17] I wonder why no one of us did a back-of-the-envelope estimate of the number of turns spent per level yesterday. 02:17] i don't like ridiculous ood spawns 02:17] i did 02:17] vaguely 02:17] !lg kiler=troll s=place 02:17] Unknown selector: kiler 02:17] !lg killer=troll s=place 02:17] 9 games for due (killer=troll): 5x D:8, 2x D:9, 1x D:10, 1x D:12 02:17] looked over a couple of my games, i seem to average just over 1000 turns per level or so 02:18] and i'm not particularly fast 02:18] 1k turns a level is still a third of what is required to hit the OOD penaalty, right? 02:18] and nothing starts happening until 3k turns 02:18] and even then, it's a ramp up 02:18] a 3-rune win has 69 levels 02:18] Yeah. 02:18] kilobyte: yeah, and a 3-rune win is usually around 100k turns or so 02:18] !lg * nrune=3 kty=winning s=turns 02:18] Bad arg 's=turns' - cannot summarise by turn 02:19] !lg * nrune=3 kty=winning s=turn 02:19] Bad arg 's=turn' - cannot summarise by turn 02:19] :| 02:19] !lg * nrune=3 kty=winning x=turn 02:19] Unknown selector: kty 02:19] we need avg=turn 02:19] Oh, I give up. I just fail. 02:19] doy: Yes, that would be nice. 02:19] regarding kobolds with killer darts on D:1 (yeah I just died in one's arms tonight) 02:19] I wonder if it would be bad to be able to see monsters missiles? Like you see worn and wielded equipment? 02:19] oh, thank you for the reminder 02:20] if the _average_ is close to 1.5k, you hit 3k very often 02:20] kilobyte: can always tweak it if it actually becomes a problem 02:20] but i'd say let it be for a little bit 02:20] It'll be ggood just for the fun of it. 02:20] yes, this why I said we'll be reverting it rather soon :p 02:21] for now, let's enjoy the splats and suffering :) 02:21] it certainly won't be reverted 02:21] Increased to 4k or so seems like a better option than straight reverting. 02:21] yes 02:21] I agree with Lemuel's post on c-r-d 02:21] Hmm, an altar on D:1. 02:22] adjustments can always be made. 02:22] Keskitalo: Alligators in swamp! 02:22] Oh bummer, crocodiles and alligators need to be on the same glyphs, right? 02:23] they're so unlike each other! 02:23] Also, why are giant geckos yellow? 02:23] due: They're badass for XL1 chars. 02:23] Hm. 02:23] Okay, bah. 02:23] I might be full of BS but I think the idea is to have bright colours for *relative* threats on normal spawning depth. 02:23] I wanted to use blue and lightblue for alligators, and yellow for crocodiles. 02:23] Stairdancing a tough fight might be likely to hit 3k. 02:23] I probably spent close to that on Vaults:7 a few times. 02:24] I'm a bit late to this conversation. 02:24] I suppose we can stick to lightgreen for crocodiles. 02:25] Okay, colours. 02:26] green, giant newt; lightgreen, giant lizard -> crocodile; yellow, giant gecko; blue, giant iguanaa; magenta, gila monster; lightred, komodo dragon; brown, swamp drake; red, fire drake; lightgrey, death drake. 02:26] Oh, lightcyan, lindwurm. 02:26] I'm proposing that we move giant iguana to cyan, and use blue + lightblue for alligators. 02:28] * syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:28] No objections? Okay. 02:28] Kyrris: I guess it depends on just how fast the ood/reduced spawns ramp up for how important it is to normal chars. 02:29] yes, i really thing we should wait to see how it actually plays out 02:30] due: Seems fine-ish, though obviously a bit crowded. I guess it already was, though. 02:30] before assuming it's going to cause all kinds of problems 02:30] maybe move alligators and crocodiles to t 02:30] doy: That was my other thought. 02:31] doy: But I'm not sur ethat renaming and rebranding and re-glyphing giant lizards from 'l giant lizard' to 't crocodile' would help. 02:31] And they'd change glyph, name, *and* colour. 02:31] Does this matter? 02:31] how similar will they be to ginat lizards? 02:31] i don't mind it 02:31] Twinge: stats would be basically the same 02:31] @??giant lizard 02:31] giant lizard (09l) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 20 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 104. 02:32] True. 02:32] Stats will be identical, for now. 02:32] In 0.7 they'll get a jaw-clenching (like constricting) attack. 02:32] giant lizards were always annoying because they're such a large jump in power level 02:32] They'll be amphibious, but get no speed bonus in water. 02:32] compared to the rest of the lizard-type things you've seen up until that point 02:33] making it clear that they're actually different is a good thing, i think 02:33] I suppose moving them to 't' works, then? 02:33] Also, "crocodile" sounds a lot more terrifying than "giant lizard". 02:33] At least in my head. 02:33] The name is a pretty clear indicator, hehe. And since they're close enough re-using the glyph is fine. But moving them is also fine. Pretty indifferent on this one. 02:33] yes 02:34] giant lizard did definitely sound rather generic for something that can smack for 20 damage 02:34] Yeah. 02:34] Level gain --more-- seems to be printed below the visible message window for me. 02:34] (on CDO, the latest build) 02:34] especially that the name sounds like "giant newt" 02:35] kilobyte: Yeah. 02:35] kilobyte: yes 02:35] we're overusing "giant", so it doesn't convey a sense of danger 02:35] We really need to dump giant. 02:35] yes 02:35] giant really needs to be renamed 02:35] Iguanas are usually pretty large; why do they need to be giant? 02:36] doy: Giant bat and giant cockroach? 02:36] I think I agree. 02:36] Monsters don't have to be large to prove to be a big threat. 02:36] And I don't think we need to rationalise that they're a big threat because they're "giant": they can just be a threat. 02:36] Being paralyzed no longer offers a --more-- prompt each turn. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=505) by Kyrris 02:37] 'giant' could stay for insects, i suppose 02:37] but 'giant bat' -> 'bat' wouldn't be a bad idea, i think 02:37] "mite" sounds better than "giant mite" in my head. 02:37] I agree. 02:37] "mitey mite".. aren't mites quite tiny? 02:38] They're small enough to parasitize ticks. 02:38] But why do we need to call them giant? 02:39] Could be "big-ass". 02:39] due: because hitting normal mites with a sword doesn't really make sense 02:40] maybe crawl mites are giant, but do you need to name them that? 02:40] st_: That is my point. 02:40] They're Mitanic. 02:40] "This mite is surprisingly large." 02:40] shrug, i think it sounds somewhat silly to say nothing 02:41] the description could say "I really really big" 02:41] but you could be right 02:41] i don't feel too strongly about it 02:41] (: 02:41] Is* 02:42] Also hiding the --more--: getting another go from identify scroll. 02:42] Jumbo, Enormous, Gigantic, Hulking, Huge, Immense, Towering, Massive, Oversized, Mighty... 02:42] // [ds] Amphibious monsters get a significant speed boost 02:42] // when swimming, as discussed with dpeg. We do not 02:42] And *now* the truth comes out. 02:42] :D 02:42] * due glares respectively at greensnark and dpeg. 02:43] Does cdo have the new OODs yet 02:43] Yes. 02:43] As of about half an hour ago. 02:43] just did a few minutes ago 02:43] We are all waiting patiently for the deaths. 02:43] * due cackles, quietly, though. 02:43] (: 02:43] time to die 02:43] to scare ##crawl 02:47] fr: new jumbo shrimp monster 02:47] just get rid of one of the fish for it 02:48] 03kilobyte * re2ec8461d327 10/crawl-ref/settings/autopickup_exceptions.txt: Multiple copies of new amulets are useless (Marvin) 02:48] 03kilobyte * re330e68623d7 10/crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Scrolls (not spells) of torment are definitely not useless for undead (Marvin) 02:52] !lg Kyrris -2 02:52] 619. Kyrris the Firebug (L1 KeFE), hit from afar by a kobold on D:1 on 2010-01-22, with 41 points after 186 turns and 0:00:25. 02:52] ^^^ buggy vmsg 02:52] it should say what he was hit *with* 02:53] Again --more-- problems when joining a religion - that part also displays differently from before. (haven't checked message.cc todo list) 02:53] that message is supposed to be reserved for innate ranged attacks (oklobs, manticores) 02:54] Oh god, we need jumbo shrimp 02:54] !lg Kyrris -2 -tv 02:54] 619. Kyrris, XL1 KeFE, T:186 requested for FooTV. 02:54] And the new super OOD will probably need to be weakened, yeah :P 02:54] why? :P 02:54] But we shall gloat over the splats first 02:54] sorear: exploding dart 02:54] doy: I know 02:55] doy: But people who run !lg queries five years from now won't 02:55] syllogism: Well, it's now 1 in 500, so people are going to run into frost giants from randomy respawsns even before 3k turns :P 02:55] oh 02:55] Especially if they're doing aggregate or filtered queries and can't just check logs 02:55] sorear: i know 02:55] just pointing it out to whoever feels like actually fixing it 02:55] (: 02:55] were the super oods broken before your changes? 02:56] They were 1 in 5000 :P 02:56] 10x more common now :P 02:56] Even before anti-scumming activation 02:56] yeah but I don't think I ever saw anything on d1 that could be considered super OOD :P 02:56] Centaurs on D1 for everybody! 02:56] centaurs arent super ood :P 02:56] greensnark: YOU ARE TO BLAME. 02:56] D:1 had the 1.4k wait before super OODs could activate, and even after it activated it was 1 in 5000 02:56] greensnark: I SAW THE COMMENT. 02:57] For D1 they count as super OOD, I think. 02:57] due: For what? :P 02:57] greensnark: I'm just going to kill the amphibious bonus, and we can adjust swim speed at a later date? 02:57] Twinge: moderate ood is like 7, super ood is 27 02:57] greensnark: Or should I go through and manually update all of them? 02:57] super ood = titans 02:57] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 02:58] due: I haven't followed the water discussion closely, but things like hydras and Antaeus should keep their water boost 02:58] As also mefolk in water 02:58] greensnark: Okay. But we'll do that using SWIM_ENERGY, yeah? 02:58] sorear: Madness. But... that's never happened on D1? I remember looking at a lot of D1 kills, and they only things that far OOD were like from pissed dieties 02:58] But we can add it back later if necessary 02:58] greensnark: I don't honestly understand how ennergy is supposed to work. 02:58] Yes, we can use swim_energy 02:58] greensnark: So, that's why I'm saying someone else who can work out what it should be so it's the same as before can do it. :) 02:59] !lg * killer=yaktaur caption min=lvl 02:59] No games for * (killer=yaktaur caption min=lvl). 02:59] !lg * killer=yaktaur captain min=lvl 02:59] 232. wasp the Swordfighter (L18 HEPa), worshipper of The Shining One, shot by a yaktaur captain (bolt of frost) in Hell on 2007-07-25, with 211386 points after 61450 turns and 7:49:11. 02:59] Beh 02:59] swim_energy(6) means they use 6 of per action, yeah? 02:59] !lg * killer=yaktaur captain min=xl 02:59] 232. syllogism the Ducker (L1 SpTh), worshipper of Elyvilon, shot by a yaktaur captain (bolt of flame) on D:22 on 2008-08-07, with 368 points after 24798 turns and 1:01:31. 02:59] !lg * killer=yaktaur captain place=D:1 02:59] 1. Imin the Skirmisher (L2 MuFi), shot by a yaktaur captain (bolt) on D:1 on 2007-03-24, with 73 points after 1105 turns and 0:04:31. 02:59] * greensnark is slow. 03:00] Or is it 6 of base speed? 03:00] due: energy for monsters works exactly the same as for players 03:00] 6/10 of the normal energy they'd use 03:00] Okay. 03:00] You hear a splash. x4 03:00] sorear: I don't understand how it works for the player, either. :) 03:01] ??energy 03:01] I don't have a page labeled energy in my learndb. 03:01] I guess some foo band spawned in water? 03:01] should I investigate? :P 03:01] You should. 03:01] Anyway 03:01] I'm of for a jog. 03:02] Back in an hour or so. 03:02] lucky me 03:02] What was it :P 03:02] check ##crawl :P 03:02] How boring 03:02] That's already been done in 2007 :P 03:02] Can you get some more modern action 03:02] people still hang out in ##crawl? 03:03] How about a titan 03:03] that place got to be too much for me 03:03] (: 03:03] Dear lord, yaktaur captain 03:03] doy: meneril the Chiller (L2 MuIE), shot by a yaktaur captain (bolt) on D:1, with 76 points after 9684 turns and 0:07:57. 03:03] greensnark: is the current ood formula more or less harsh than 0.1 levels? 03:04] Twinge: nice 03:04] doy: Not nice :O 03:05] doy: More common 03:05] But it only kicks in after 1.4k turns on D:1 03:05] I'm planning ot push it back to around 1/2000 as a starting value 03:05] Compared to 1/5000 in 0.1 03:06] And 1/500 now :P 03:06] if it starts at 1/500 now, what does it ramp up to? 03:06] 1/1 :P 03:06] 100% after 9k turns :P 03:06] Wait, so did any of the mummy buffs go in yet? 03:06] haha, nice 03:06] Twinge: the stats did, i think 03:06] not sure about anything else 03:06] yeah this MuWz has 10 17 10 03:07] 0.2% at 3k turns, 100% at 9k turns 03:07] I think the starting value needs a change 03:07] And the ending value back to 12k turns :P 03:07] More int than Dex, for sure 03:07] syllogism: What do you think? :P 03:07] sounds fine 03:09] I found something new :P 03:09] but I might die to something old :( 03:10] Try to avoid being boring here :P 03:10] I think I managed :P 03:10] <3 03:10] Only 5k turns, too, good, good 03:12] meneril the Magician (L2 MuWz), blasted by an ogre mage (bolt of lightning) on D:1, with 34 points after 5119 turns and 0:05:11. 03:12] Perfect 03:12] Let's keep OODs exactly as they are now 03:13] And make a centaur always spawn on D:1 every game too right 03:14] !killsby centaur cv>=0.4 place=d:1 03:14] 48 games for * (ckiller=centaur ((cv>=0.4 place=d:1))): 7x KiloByte, 2x Pixels, 2x syban, 2x heteroy, 2x TGW, 1x aori, 1x crawlie, 1x thevalrus, 1x b0lt, 1x MUMMY, 1x 78291, 1x tapicell, 1x Manslay, 1x sysy, 1x rolfh, 1x svek, 1x Phantom, 1x Scarr, 1x Elly, 1x Eli, 1x ziropiro, 1x Jhav, 1x doy, 1x ruthinator, 1x Blackmore, 1x Sergei, 1x Skizzler, 1x Shivaasori, 1x herself, 1x NyaaKitty, 1x khyrre,... 03:15] I wonder how many of those followed up stairs 03:15] I avoided a centaur on D:1 once. It was a mistake, because I met a worm on D:2 :P 03:16] !lg kilobyte ckiller=centaur place=d:1 s=xl 03:16] 7 games for kilobyte (ckiller=centaur place=d:1): 3x 4, 2x 3, 1x 5, 1x 6 03:16] !lg kilobyte ckiller=centaur place=d:1 s=race 03:16] 7 games for kilobyte (ckiller=centaur place=d:1): 7x Mummy 03:16] aha 03:16] You finish putting on the +2 pair of gloves of Ynekioru {rPois Acc+3}. 03:16] !lg kilobyte ckiller=centaur place=d:1 s=start 03:16] Bad arg 's=start' - cannot summarise by start 03:16] !lg kilobyte ckiller=centaur place=d:1 s=v 03:16] 7 games for kilobyte (ckiller=centaur place=d:1): 3x 0.4.4, 2x 0.6.0-a0, 1x 0.5.1, 1x 0.6.0-a1 03:17] !gamesby kilobyte race=mu 03:17] kilobyte (race=mu) has played 656 games, between 20080808 and 20100121, won 1 (0.2%), high score 2213368, total score 6128918, total turns 35437963, total time 187:22:58. 03:17] 03by * ra21ab46018f3 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-util.cc mon-util.h): Revert "mons_is_firewood: Monsters that other monsters may cut through." 03:17] 03by * re2dbb8c1401c 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Move cutting down check out of _monster_move. 03:19] * by has joined ##crawl-dev 03:19] * ChanServ sets mode: +v by 03:20] hi 03:20] hey 03:24] Hi by! 03:24] Where should I post bugs/anomalies about the message window? Is there a wiki page or a Testing & Feedback item on the mantis? 03:25] nothing at the moment; you could start one or just file bug reports 03:25] Okay, I'll start one later 03:25] due/Napkin can you run cdo/trunk update scripts? I could use the new builds on the usability project right now :) 03:25] 03greensnark * rd3eb308ad228 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Make super OOD chances start at 1/5000 again, and increase ramp time to 9k turns (0.02% at 3k -> 100% at 12k turns). 03:26] wasn't it going to be 2k :p 03:26] let's just get rid of level_number and monster depths 03:26] It was :P 03:26] sorear: d: 03:27] make monster composition uniform by branch 03:27] due/Napkin scratch that, I can do 03:27] would it be straightforward to get the stash tracker to find sticks-to-snake material by searching for "stash"? 03:27] "stick" 03:27] Yes 03:27] updated this morning, Keskitalo :) 03:28] You can add a suitable annotation to item descriptions 03:28] The same way weapons are annotated with their skills and stuff 03:28] Napkin: I mean the Windows builds.. I'm on it. Already played the freshest build on CDO a bit back. :) 03:28] if you're going to mess with item annotations, you should make the {artefact} annotation added to all artefacts, not just ided ones 03:28] Damn kobolds with darts, I ain't going near them anymore. 03:28] is this in C++ (stash.cc?) or lua? 03:28] by: It can be done in either 03:29] If you use Lua you'll probably need to add bindings to figure out if an item is sticks-to-snakes-able 03:29] stash.lua has the existing annotaitons 03:29] ok, thanks, I'll have a look 03:29] ==doy 03:30] agreed on artefact applying to all arts 03:30] yes, I'll try to do that as a warm-up 03:31] stash_annotate_item is the C++ function that hands off to the Lua annotator and adds spellbook contents 03:31] If you want to do it in C++, you'd do it there 03:31] :) 03:32] * due reutnrs. 03:32] * greensnark reuters. 03:32] ... 03:32] * due returns. 03:32] by: I assume " * - --more-- for full message window (partial)" in the todo is that when the message window is full and you get a --more--, it's not displayed ? 03:32] hey, we could even annotate items with alt spellings 03:32] artifact, armor 03:32] sorear: That's stupid. 03:32] Yes, we should do that 03:32] OH 03:33] You don't mean 03:33] plate mail {armor}? 03:33] by: The religion screen is also on your TODO, I think that covers what I had to report 03:33] Obviously I missed a point. 03:33] The game is supposed to accept US english spellings where possible on player input 03:33] due: These annotations aren't actually shown to the user 03:33] due: Annotations are not the same as inscriptions 03:33] Ah. 03:33] Ignoreme! 03:33] It's like ^F shop 03:33] Yeah, I just gathered that. 03:33] ^F armor in this case 03:33] Keskitalo: first, no 03:33] That is a really good idea? 03:34] greensnark: where does it do that currently? 03:34] doy: stash.lua 03:34] that's just that delayed messaging doesn't have window-full --more-- prompts at all, which is part feature and part missing implementation 03:34] greensnark: no, i mean the accepting us english bit 03:34] doy: Oh, for .rc config options 03:34] oh, it does? 03:34] i had no idea 03:34] (: 03:35] by: Thanks for tweaking the cutt-down thing. 03:35] It's not consistent, but that's the intnet, yes 03:35] Okay, back into amphibiousnessmonsterness! 03:36] due: just a bit of cleanup -- thanks for fixing the actual behaviour 03:36] by: Oh, I see. I'll note that down. 03:36] 03by * ra5c0dcc21673 10/crawl-ref/source/l_item.cc: l_item.cc: item.artefact doesn't check identified status anymore. 03:36] 03by * rf45e327980a9 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/lua/stash.lua: Update artefact stash search comment. 03:37] Message window anomalities (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=506) by evktalo 03:37] by: That's fine, someone (marvinpa, I think?) commented that they got a piety loss because a wandering mushroom destroyed a toadstool to get to a monster. 03:37] greensnark: Can you think of any instances where we shouldn't be doing monster speed in water via swim energy? 03:38] What was the delay_message_clear renamed to? 03:39] clear_messages 03:41] Thanks. 03:41] by: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=506 - does it look useful? I added some related reports under Relationships. I figure that list could be useful. 03:42] Keskitalo: yes, thanks 03:42] Icemage has a point, to be honest. 03:43] Keskitalo: my remark was re the --more-- TODO item; your issue is different 03:43] But the numbers just need to be tweaked. 03:45] Oh. 03:45] they have been. 03:45] Ignore me. 03:45] due: No, swim energy should be fine 03:45] greensnark: Excellent. 03:48] So, what monsters should get immediate swim_energy tweaks? Ilsuiw, antaeus, hydras and merfolk? 03:49] 1/3000 or 1/4000 would be better 03:49] Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2579-gf45e327 (16.1) 03:49] syllogism: Well, if they farm they'll get there quick 03:50] And past D:7 level-generation will use 1/5000 OODs, which should keep things lively 03:50] I like the more aggressive OOD gen of 1/500 :P 03:50] But I enjoy the early game more than most :P 03:51] greensnark is a freak. ;) 03:51] * scarf|away is now known as scarf 03:51] due: by likes early game too! <3 03:51] I love the early game, to be honest? 03:51] Aha 03:51] Now the confessions begin 03:51] Hence the ;). 03:52] "I have a secret early-game fetish" 03:53] yes 03:53] greensnark: Also, thank you so much; the ditem stuff works perfectly! 03:53] greensnark: Can you think of any sane way for dLua to convert a non-ditem item into ditem, if ... oh, never mind. 03:54] You're welcome, you did all the work anyway :) 03:54] It just needs a "convert_to_dlua" that's assert_dlua. 03:54] Which pushes a that item with a new metatable using push_ditem! Hooray! 03:54] I understand! I see the light! 03:54] * due is blinded. 03:55] * greensnark tranquilizes due. 03:55] :) 03:56] found the perfect scummy spot :P 03:58] 03by * rac585e081608 10/crawl-ref/source/ (spells2.cc spells2.h): item_is_snakable: Whether an item is suitable for Sticks to Snakes. 03:58] 03by * rdb2f87eebcab 10/crawl-ref/source/l_item.cc: item.snakable: Lua binding for item_is_snakable. 03:58] 03by * r05e793241f23 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/lua/stash.lua: Annotate snakable items with "stick" for the stash tracker. 03:58] snackable! 03:58] Don't make me hungry, people 03:58] Terrible things happen when I get hungry :P 03:59] Do these things involve Crawl hacking 03:59] ... do they? 03:59] Not at work, no :P 03:59] Damn. 03:59] Well, not major hackin, no :P 03:59] oh, so they do cause minor hacking? 03:59] Can I give quokkas bolt of draining breath? 03:59] Been there, done that. 03:59] * sorear wafts a slice of pizza under greensnark's nose 04:00] I think it would round them out neatly 04:00] greensnark: I think they'd overlap too much with red rats 04:00] Oh, right 04:00] http://allyscurrypalace.co.uk/site/images/cdeals/pakora1.jpg 04:00] You knooow you want to. 04:00] Hellfire breath? 04:00] give it to capybara instead 04:01] To be honest, a rat monster with draining breath sounds like a cool idea. 04:01] greensnark: teleportation and breeding maybe 04:01] There's a place 2m walk from here with awesome pakoras 04:01] * greensnark is back in a bit. 04:01] Bring me some. 04:01] That's "2 minutes", not miles 04:01] 2 meter? mile? 04:01] ah 04:01] * Kyrris has quit IRC 04:01] I haven't had pakora in two years? 04:01] Hm. 04:01] You know... my kitchen is only a half a minute walk. Do I want to make pakora? 04:02] storm dragon skeleton 04:02] syllogism: I did that in Ice Caves: ice dragon skeletons that breathe frost. 04:03] I mean there's one on d1 :P 04:03] Oh. 04:04] Okay. 04:04] by: Ah alright, I'll clarify that in a bit. Thanks! (I'll add some more info too - I only tested on CDO, I'll check it out on Windows tiles too) 04:04] the Abyss is so beautiful, it makes the rest of the game boring in comparison 04:04] Frogs, hydra, merfolk, snakes, Antaeus... 04:04] scarf: Even my portal vaults? :( 04:04] due: which ones? I might not have found them 04:04] <3 Abyss 04:05] scarf: WizLabs. 04:05] my favorite level too 04:05] due: I haven't found one, then 04:05] the abyss would be even better if it deliberately picked monsters with a similar colour to that of the level, by the way 04:05] although that wouldn't really work on tiles 04:05] well it kind of does 04:05] Yeah. Tiles is always a struggle. 04:06] am I going to have to recompile for tiles just to see what the abyss looks like in them? 04:06] or can someone describe it to me? 04:06] I've never been in Abyss. 04:06] In tiles. 04:06] scarf: Pandemonium picks colours based on monsters. :) 04:07] heh 04:07] hmm, Crawl has a shortage of really open levels 04:07] Okay. Slugs. 04:07] I dream about things like a Plains branch full of centaurs 04:07] Speed bonus in water? 04:07] maybe I should implement it 04:07] due: np 04:08] no 04:08] Giant newt? 04:08] And komodo dragon? 04:08] hmm, unlikely to come up very often for newts, but it would make sense if they did 04:09] Okay. 04:09] and it's hardly going to make a big gameplay difference either way 04:09] (Crawl doesn't have a Dudley, does it?) 04:09] What SWIM_ENERGY() value should we be using to duplicate the previous speed bonus? 04:09] 6 04:09] exacrtly 04:09] Ah, thank you. 04:10] SWIM_ENERGY(8) = slow in water than 6, yeah? 04:10] Because it's using 8/10 instead of 6/10 energy. 04:11] yes 04:12] scarf: Brand full of centaurs? The vaults are not enough for you?? 04:13] Twinge: it's not really the centaurs, more the openness 04:13] it just seemed like a plausible place for centaurs to live 04:13] Vestibule is rather open 04:13] ideally it would be just the one level, but infinitely wide 04:13] and you could play a spriggan and just run and run and run 04:14] but then, people don't really like role-playing NetHack, even less so in Crawl I imagine 04:14] scarf: there is a proposal for an open branch 04:14] infinity <3 04:14] scarf: A desert-based replacement for Crypt 04:15] desert could work 04:15] Hm. 04:17] Should I be tweaking swim speed for turtles? 04:17] Ah, no, that already tweaks swim speed... 04:18] !tell greensnark What should be done about snapping turtles? Left as-is regards swim speed? 04:18] due: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 04:18] Ugly things get no speed bonus, as far as I'm concerned? 04:18] sorear? 04:19] I'm also going to make sea snakes faster in water. 04:23] yes 04:24] Ooh, there are desert iguanas. 04:25] I wish real life were as interesting as crawl monsters. 04:26] due: Turtles should get speed boost in water, yes 04:26] greensnark: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 04:26] greensnark: Snapping turtles have a weird action energy. 04:26] whereas alligator snapping turtles do not 04:26] Action energy doesn't apply to swimming 04:26] It applies to attacking 04:27] Or spellcasting and stuff which turtles don't 04:27] Ah, you're right. 04:27] Easy to adapt it to work for that, thoguh. 04:27] Though I should just make a new one. 04:27] You can just combine them with | 04:27] Oh, you can? 04:28] I didn't realise this. 04:28] ACTION_ENERGY(8) | SWIM_ENERGY(6) 04:28] * due dumb. 04:29] mon_energy_usage operator | (const mon_energy_usage &o) const 04:29] * due did not read this far. :( 04:30] Okay, awesome.. 04:32] greensnark: I'm also making sea snakes SWIM_ENERGY(4). Sound good? 04:32] Nasty :) 04:32] I like it 04:32] I knoooow. 04:32] So they're effectively speed 30 in water :P 04:32] Shh, don't tell 04:33] You just don't fight them in water. 04:33] Nobody fights them in water, yeah :) 04:33] Hm. 04:33] Part of the issue with habits is habitat to grid. 04:33] I've made the primary for amphibious land, and the secondary water. 04:33] Is this going to be okay for merfolk? 04:34] Yes 04:34] The only extra detail is the submerging flag if any 04:34] Presumably water damage bonus is removed, in which case you should also remove it from player merfolk 04:34] I'm just changing that. 04:34] Amphibious first, then submerging is goin gto be a class flag. 04:34] Next, water damage boni will go bye-bye. 04:35] Is "boni" a word :P 04:35] Yes 04:35] bon.i ADJ 1 1 NOM P M POS 04:35] bon.i ADJ 1 1 VOC P M POS 04:35] bonus, bona -um, melior -or -us, optimus -a -um ADJ [XXXAO] 04:35] good, honest, brave, noble, kind, pleasant, right, useful; valid; h 04:35] boni is the nominative plural masculine form of the adjective bonus. 04:36] It's the proper plural of bonus. :) 04:36] Maybe, but in English you'd write bonuses :P 04:36] was in Latin 04:36] Octopi? 04:36] words can change plurals when they change languages 04:36] although don't always 04:36] English is irregular like that 04:37] Boni is an acceptable plural. 04:37] As I tell a lot of people, penii is not. 04:37] (I love the arguments about whether the plural of "Unix" is "Unixen" or "Unices") 04:37] WHo uses "penii" :P 04:37] "penes" is the proper plural of "penis". 04:37] A surprisingly large number of people that I know think "penii" is cool and correct. 04:37] Autopickup not working (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=507) by Eifeltrampel 04:39] How many more class flags can we stuff in? 04:39] I don't get why you'd be going around pluralising "penis" anyway 04:39] It's at 1<<31; is that the limit, or is 1<<32? 04:39] Oh, there's a spare. 04:39] 1<<31 is the max for 32-bit 04:39] Hm 04:40] But there's no reason why we can't increase the size of mons_class_flags, right? 04:40] (1<<32)-1 is the max for unsigned, (1<<31)-1 for signed 04:40] It's an unsigned long at the minute. 04:40] scarf: We're talking about bit flags, not numbers 04:40] hmm, next size up is long long, and not all compilers support it 04:41] greensnark: ah 04:41] Maybe not, then? Bah. 04:41] Maybe we need to dump some flags. 04:41] M_NO_WAND and M_NO_HT_WAND :P 04:41] :p 04:42] Or we can keep M_TWOWEAPON out 04:42] you could check all the compilers that Crawl's meant to support to see if they handle long long, I suppose 04:42] It's sane and it makes sense and it stops uniques of low levels getting hight-tier flame wands if you want to give them a large HD. 04:42] There's such a small number of two-weaponers that using a flag for them is unnecessary 04:42] due: I don't mean removing the functionality 04:42] True. 04:42] I mean moving the check into a function that checks for specific monster types 04:43] But otherwise it's hardcoded and annoying? 04:43] But you're right, they could/should go. 04:43] Or we can use extended monster flags, just add another enum 04:43] But that tends to be messy :P 04:43] scarf: What's the difference between unsigned long long and uint_64? 04:44] due: uint_64_t is always exactly 64 bits, unsigned long long is at least 64 bits 04:44] uint_64t should exist on all the gccs we care about 04:44] Ah. 04:44] But best not to rely on it if we can avoid it 04:44] also, the first requires a C99 header 04:44] stdint, yeah 04:44] whereas the second, while required by C99 compilers, is often supported by other compilers too 04:44] greensnark: We already use uint64_t, no? 04:44] We already use stdint 04:44] Do we use uint64_t somewhere? 04:44] It's in random.cc; not sure if it's actually used. 04:44] msvc and gcc use different names for those 04:45] uint32_t is what we use 04:45] I don't know if we care sufficiently about platforms that can't handle 64-bit ints 04:46] I also don't know what C++ thinks about enum constants that need 64-bits 04:46] it's a case of compilers, not platforms 04:46] sorear: ^^ thoughts? 04:46] most compilers are happy to emulate 64 bits if needed 04:46] scarf: Well, I mean compiler-as-platform 04:46] I suppose I should be clearer 04:46] Well, it's not really important at the minute, because there's still a free flag for classes that I can use for M_SUBMERGES. 04:47] But I'd rather just toss the M_ flags that are used by one or two monsters only 04:47] M_INVIS, M_NO_WANT, M_NO_HT_WAND... 04:47] M_ARCHER, M_TWO_WEAPON are used by very few monsters 04:47] What else? M_GLOWS? M_TWO_WEAPON and M_ARCHER? 04:47] And possibly M_ACID_SPLASH. 04:47] unsigned __int64 for msvc, uint64_t for gcc if you care 04:47] But don't remove them right now if we have a spare 04:47] Oh, M_ACID_SPLASH is used a lot. 04:47] For some reason I thought that was TRJ-only. 04:48] M_BURROWS is only used by two, too. 04:48] Anyway. 04:48] why is it stored in an int rather than a bitfield, by the way? historical reasons, or some other reason? 04:51] * Eifel has joined ##crawl-dev 04:51] hi 04:52] Hey Eifel. 04:52] greensnark: POSIX mandates uint64_t exist 04:53] greensnark: MSVC | POSIX is the whole world, right? 04:53] sorear: some POSIX is newer than others, though 04:53] greensnark: I would just do a flagset type, N-word vector 04:53] greensnark: Merfolk will never submerge now, right? 04:56] Right 04:56] gcc types, intel's compiler, msvc are probably the 99% of the compilers you'll find 04:56] // FIXME, switch to 4.1's MF_SUBMERGED system which is much cleaner. 04:56] // Can't find any reference to MF_SUBMERGED anywhere. Don't know what 04:56] // this means. - abrahamwl 04:56] How cute. :) 04:56] Merfolk should not submerge because submerging is exclusively the province of the lame :) 04:57] Okay. 04:57] Now we get to go down the list and delete some water creatures' ability to submerge. 04:57] Well, unless we're fixing submergers to only submerge until first attack 04:57] Swamp worm? 04:59] playing through the games, it seems as though submerging is designed to give a reason to play polearms 04:59] Tentables submerge? 05:00] Don't let tentacles submerge 05:00] Gone. 05:00] scarf: There was no design there, the two happened independently, and the polearm attacking water things is obscure and probably a misfeature 05:00] Making amphibious monsters submerge will now be difficult, but I think that's fine. 05:00] Maybe it should just not happen. 05:00] I'm going to nuke giant leeches from submerging. 05:02] Argh, mon-util.h hits 110 files? 05:02] Have fun :P 05:02] I hate that. 05:02] Is that Donald dialogue? :P 05:03] ... I have half a mind to add w:1 @The_monster@ says, "Recompiling everything? I hate that" to donald. 05:03] "Re-doing everything? I hate that." might be better and more to the point: re-doing the game after you die, recompiling... 05:05] * B0RG1N has joined ##crawl-dev 05:06] * B0RG1N has quit IRC (Client Quit) 05:06] mon-util.h is far too large; when you're done, I'll try to split it up a bit 05:07] by: Please do, I'll kiss you. 05:07] I've got the water boni to kill next. 05:07] it won't help with enum changes though, probably 05:07] Probably not. 05:09] Was Donald inspired by Francis from left 4 dead 05:10] syllogism: I don't know, I think pointless had the original idea to do complaints while following the player around? 05:10] And then someone suggested (or I came up with the idea) to have the ccomplaints dependnent on branch, god, etc. 05:11] greensnark: How was your pakora, also? 05:13] !lm Silwyr 05:13] 68. [2010-01-22] Silwyr the Skirmisher (L7 MDFi) killed Duvessa on turn 4837. (D:5) 05:13] !lg Silwyr 05:13] 31. Silwyr the Skirmisher (L7 MDFi), blasted by Dowan (shard of ice) on D:5 on 2010-01-22, with 1101 points after 4854 turns and 0:22:50. 05:13] I love it. 05:14] due: I had samosas 05:14] Freshly made :P 05:14] ... 05:15] greensnark: Anyway, gloat with me! Dowan got a post-Duvessa death kill! 05:15] Hasn't he been doing that a lot :) 05:15] !lg * killer=Dowan|Duvessa s=killer 05:15] I haven't noticed any particular teamwork between Dowan and Duvessa, by the way 05:15] 87 games for * (killer=Dowan|Duvessa): 58x Duvessa, 28x Dowan, 1x Duvessa, the human 05:15] scarf: Yeah, it should be worked on. 05:15] they spawn together, but that's about it 05:15] They're supposed to stick together. 05:16] Dowan will also haste Duvessa. 05:16] and I normally kill them by baiting them into separating 05:16] too bad non-D OODs are pathetic 05:17] greensnark: do you know about extra mpr("") required on DOS? 05:18] Okay, trapdoor spiders work too. 05:18] !lg * killer=uniq s=killer 05:18] 31590 games for * (killer=uniq): 14320x Sigmund, 5072x Jessica, 4164x Ijyb, 3459x Terence, 921x Blork the orc, 734x Prince Ribbit, 526x Erolcha, 494x Edmund, 145x Psyche, 142x Snorg, 132x Frederick, 114x Boris, 92x Margery, 81x Xtahua, 81x Crazy Yiuf, 68x Rupert, 61x Urug, 60x Norris, 58x Duvessa, 52x Agnes, 51x Harold, 51x Jozef, 50x Norbert, 50x Erica, 43x Antaeus, 38x Menkaure, 36x Tiamat, 32x ... 05:18] Crazy Yiuf's making his way up there! 05:18] As is Duvessa and Menkaure. 05:19] any unique who isn't in that list needs buffing 05:19] also, I wouldn't have expected to see Jessica second on that list 05:19] Jessica is one of the scariest uniques out, besides Sigmund, for early dungeon. 05:19] !lg * killer=uniq s=killer cv=0.6 05:19] greensnark: Where are the water attack bonuses hiding? 05:19] 1268 games for * (killer=uniq cv=0.6): 313x Sigmund, 138x Terence, 102x Ijyb, 81x Crazy Yiuf, 81x Prince Ribbit, 79x Jessica, 62x Blork the orc, 56x Duvessa, 36x Menkaure, 28x Gastronok, 26x Dowan, 25x Pikel, 18x Erolcha, 17x Jozef, 17x Nikola, 15x Purgy, 15x Rupert, 13x Harold, 13x Edmund, 11x Aizul, 11x Agnes, 10x Norbert, 10x Maud, 10x Erica, 8x Psyche, 8x Snorg, 7x Grum, 7x Frederick, 6x Mauri... 05:19] I suppose it's a case of, if you prepare for Sigmund you're prepared for Jessica too 05:19] Hey, cool, all of my uniques are up there. :) 05:19] due: fight.cc 05:19] !lg * ikiller=uniq s=killer cv=0.6 05:19] 1388 games for * (ikiller=uniq cv=0.6): 313x Sigmund, 138x Terence, 102x Ijyb, 81x Crazy Yiuf, 81x Prince Ribbit, 79x Jessica, 62x Blork the orc, 56x Duvessa, 40x a slave, 36x Menkaure, 28x Gastronok, 26x Dowan, 25x Pikel, 18x Erolcha, 17x Nikola, 17x Jozef, 15x Purgy, 15x Rupert, 13x Edmund, 13x Harold, 11x Agnes, 11x Aizul, 10x Maud, 10x Norbert, 10x Erica, 9x , 9x a war dog, 8x Snorg, 8x Psyche... 05:20] 40x a slave :) 05:20] by: DOS cprintf needs \r\n instead of plain \n 05:20] what's the difference between killer and ikiller? 05:20] scarf: ikiler checks the summon/lead chain. 05:20] scarf: Pikel's slaves are part of his band, so 05:20] !lg * ikiller=pikel s=killer 05:20] 65 games for * (ikiller=pikel): 40x a slave, 25x Pikel 05:20] so we don't need the mpr("") if we remember to use EOL instead of \n? 05:20] !lg * ikiller=pikel killer=slave 05:20] 40. minced the Skirmisher (L5 HOCr), mangled by a slave (led by Pikel) on D:3 on 2010-01-20, with 264 points after 5790 turns and 0:24:18. 05:20] by: Yes, I think 05:21] ok, thanks 05:21] !lg * ikiller=pikel 05:21] 65. Eifeltrampel the Skirmisher (L6 MDPa), worshipper of The Shining One, slain by Pikel (a +2,+2 whip of flaming) on D:3 on 2010-01-22, with 620 points after 4294 turns and 0:24:32. 05:21] !lg * ikiller=sonja s=turn 05:21] Bad arg 's=turn' - cannot summarise by turn 05:21] I'll remove that then, and fix the DOS bugs when they turn up 05:21] !lg * ikiller=sonja s=xl 05:21] 8 games for * (ikiller=sonja): 3x 11, 3x 10, 1x 1, 1x 12 05:22] hmm, Sonja, I'm disappointed in you 05:22] !lg * ikiller=uniq s=place 05:22] I still don't get the point why we support DOS at all. There are some mythical platforms that can run DOS but not anything else but no one could name one. 05:22] 31710 games for * (ikiller=uniq): 17077x D:2, 6588x D:3, 2490x D:4, 1821x D:5, 660x D:6, 518x D:1, 440x D:9, 246x D:7, 218x D:10, 209x D:11, 168x D:8, 96x D:12, 75x Snake:4, 59x Snake:3, 59x D:15, 55x D:13, 54x Snake:5, 54x Pan, 51x Snake:1, 42x Coc:7, 41x D:16, 40x Snake:2, 33x D:21, 31x D:14, 30x Swamp:4, 28x Swamp:5, 25x D:22, 24x D:17, 23x Swamp:2, 21x Vault:4, 20x Vault:7, 19x Vault:6, 19x D:... 05:22] 42x Coc:7. 05:22] I wonnder who *that* could be. 05:23] !killsby Murray 05:23] No games for * (ckiller=Murray). 05:23] people download the DOS binary because they think that console = DOS 05:23] :( Poor Murray. 05:23] maybe because the windows console subsystem is really messy? 05:23] try looking up the reason you can no longer copy-paste into a Windows terminal window, it's hilarious 05:23] no worse than Windows' emulation of DOS 05:24] kilobyte: agreed 05:24] Okay, goodbye water attack bonus. 05:24] Oh, wait. 05:24] Does that mean swamp wworms will no longer get bonuses? 05:25] hmm, no Unique kills in Lair at all? 05:25] at least, not showing up on that top kills list? 05:25] Ah, they're all going. 05:25] !lg * ikiller=uniq place=lair 05:25] !lg * killer=uniq br=Lair s=killer 05:25] there are some, but until recently there were almost no uniques in lair 05:25] Uniques in lair are an 0.6 thing. 05:25] ah 05:25] 40. bookofjude the Basher (L12 OgBe), worshipper of Trog, slain by Maud (a +2,+0 demon trident) on Lair:3 on 2010-01-22, with 16995 points after 19530 turns and 1:28:09. 05:25] 38 games for * (killer=uniq br=Lair): 9x Rupert, 7x Maud, 5x Gastronok, 4x Harold, 3x Jozef, 2x Erica, 1x Morun, 1x Bogdan, the orc priest, 1x Michael, 1x Duane, 1x Snorg, 1x Agnes, 1x Learuk, the orc knight, 1x Joseph 05:25] Adventuring uniques in Lair are a "in the past few weeks" thing. 05:25] Learuk is treated as a unique? 05:26] 4.1 had lair uniques :P 05:26] syllogism: But 4.1 != soup. 05:26] Maud would instakill you 05:26] is Maud a reference to NetHack, or to the poem that NetHack's referencing, by the way? 05:27] The poem. 05:28] Learuk? 05:28] "Learuk, the orc knight" 05:28] ah. 05:28] Tennyson! 05:28] I was going to say Coleridge but I knew that wasn't right. 05:29] Albatrosses in Shoals 05:29] Hehehe. 05:31] 03by * rfcfcb486ba20 10/crawl-ref/source/stuff.cc: Move display_message_window() to the end of redraw_screen(). 05:31] 03by * ra3504a65baae 10/crawl-ref/source/ (stash.cc stash.h): Save stash tracker reply to stash tracker. 05:31] too bad I can't ammend pushed commit messages 05:31] Yeah. 05:32] * Timbermaw has joined ##crawl-dev 05:32] I hate that, especially if I notice it just when I commit it. 05:32] Okay. 05:32] greensnark: About to push the changes. Any comments before I do so? 05:32] you can delete master then re-push it, but if anyone pulled in between, it will be a mess 05:33] greensnark: Quick summary: goodbye HT_AMPHIBIOUS_LAND, WATER, hello HT_AMPHIBIOUS. 05:33] greensnark: Swimming bonus is per-monster, rather than for amphibious. Submerging is per-monster wtih M_SUBMERGES. Water attack bonus is gone. 05:33] how hard would it be to build the DOS port on a mac; can I run it in DOSBox? 05:33] due: Push it, if it needs tweaks, we'll make the changes 05:33] Pushed. 05:34] by: It would be pretty rocky, so I wouldn't bother 05:34] Slime creature sshould probably be SWIM_ENERGY(12) or so. 05:34] 03due * r445a01597390 10/crawl-ref/source/ (fight.cc fight.h): Remove monster and player water attack bonus. 05:35] * due kicks ci . 05:35] ... CIA-81. 05:36] interesting literal tab :p 05:37] Lag. 05:37] Did that commit actualy go through properly? 05:38] the last commit in is the one CIA-81 announced at 13:34 05:39] Huh. 05:39] Can isomeone pull and make sur ethere are three commits? 05:39] there are 05:39] Ah, good. 05:39] Weird that they didn't go through. 05:39] it's a common thing, expect them to show up in an hour or so 05:41] * MarvinPA has quit IRC (Connection timed out) 05:46] Okay: random chance of many_pools level being clusters of trees instead. Yes/no? 05:47] do said pools house electric eels 05:47] then hell yes, go crazy with the trees! 05:50] need dropbears 05:57] Okay, so this means that the large many_pools levels can sometimes be trees. 06:00] 03j-p-e-g * r75be38c6a437 10/crawl-ref/source/viewmap.cc: Don't allow exclusions in labyrinths. 06:02] 03by * r9af02c492aa6 10/crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Fix --more-- prompts not being flushed. 06:04] Stupid CIA. 06:05] * MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev 06:10] 03due * r60ebd32f1739 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/iter.lua: Generate an error for no markers on Lua slave iterator. 06:10] 03due * r2529c57241ec 10/crawl-ref/source/dungeon.cc: Very occasionally use _many_pools with Trees instead. 06:11] due -- did you finish ozocubu, iskenderun and cekugob yet !? 06:11] Iskenderun is done 06:12] I gave up on Cekugob 06:12] D: 06:12] And I'm still working Ozocubu over in my head. 06:13] :| 06:14] But I have a working idea in my head, so it's okay! 06:14] i believe in you 06:14] maybe i'll try cekgob again later 06:14] Please do! My ideas for randomly generated just looked terrible. 06:15] I like the idea of having like... tetris bit-shapes in squares or circles that are randomly placed, and ensuring tha tthere's a path between them. 06:15] Like 4x4 blocks with paths cut randomly through. 06:16] That's possibly workable. 06:18] * ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 06:19] due: are you done with mon-util.h for the moment? 06:19] by: For the foreseeable future, at least. 06:19] Tomorrow is Troves, which means finishing the dlua items, and the play-testing post. 06:19] I'm still undecided as to whether or not I should do "Honey, I shrunk the temple" or "Down and out with the dungeon builders". 06:19] it's just aboaut the next half hour or so -- don't want to cause merge conflicts 06:20] Ah, I'm literally just goin gto bed. :) 06:21] Goodnight, folk! 06:22] good night 06:27] * Timbermaw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:30] i love the health and mana minibars near character tile 06:30] but the mana minibar needs to be lighter 06:31] it blends with the dungeon 06:34] i never noticed 06:34] you play tiles? 06:36] yes 06:38] * Timbermaw has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:54] * timecircuits has left ##crawl-dev 07:00] !tell due ask me about my cekugob map 07:00] Mu_: OK, I'll let due know. 07:09] * Timbermaw_ is now known as Timbermaw 07:12] 03j-p-e-g * r0ea43b2706b5 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Mention artefactness of unidentified artefacts in their description. 07:12] Mu_: I misread that 07:12] and thought that someone had made a unique oklob 07:12] 03due * re6389b48e107 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-data.h mon-place.cc mon-util.h monster.cc): Unlink habitat and submerging. 07:20] Mu_: what would you think about rolling boulder traps in Cekugob? 07:21] not sure 07:21] have they been proposed already? 07:23] in passing; I don't know of any actual writeups 07:24] might be fun :) 07:25] i'll see what due thinks of having them in cekugob 07:27] !tell due What would you think about rolling boulder traps in Cekugob? 07:27] kilobyte: OK, I'll let due know. 07:28] 03due * r97508e645b8f 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-data.h mon-util.cc mon-util.h monster.cc wiz-mon.cc): Merge HT_AMPHIBIOUS_WATER/LAND, remove amphibious speed boni. 07:32] yay... 1h 54m after the commit, and CIA caught up 07:34] * eith has joined ##crawl-dev 07:43] * ortoslon has left ##crawl-dev ("Leaving.") 07:53] SS trunk f45e327 : enchant armour bug (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=508) by Karagy 08:02] 03Keskitalo * r66c4191b1c42 10/crawl-ref/ (5 files in 3 dirs): Add options to control showing the minibars on the player tile. 08:04] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 08:10] * Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 08:17] 03by * rb00a92348e70 10/crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Update message.cc TODO list. 08:17] 03by * r69801c3c6f1e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-enum.h mon-util.h): Move enums from mon-util.h to mon-enum.h. 08:17] 03by * rfb00b0435195 10/crawl-ref/source/ (actor.h fight.cc fight.h monster.h player.h): Move monster casts from melee_attack to actor. 08:17] 03by * rff178309a783 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Replace print_formatted_paragraph by mpr. 08:17] 03by * r74872017b2b0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (19 files): Update includes after the mon-util.h split. 08:17] 03by * rc246f8a975e9 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-util.h mon_resist_def.h): Split mon_resist_def out of mon-util.h. 08:17] 03by * r4911b061717b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (makefile.obj mon-util.cc mon_resist_def.cc): Move mon_resist_def implementation to mon_resist_def.cc. 08:18] SH recalculation (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=509) by Karagy 08:28] * Mu_ has quit IRC ("Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.") 08:43] Sigmund is back! http://crawl.develz.org/info/ 08:43] * ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 08:43] And, learndb info is now parsed from the local rsync copy :) faster! 08:44] * Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 08:44] Napkin: Yay :) 08:44] 500% speed-up, I'd say :D 08:44] Not surprising :) 08:45] Do you dump all bad ideas now? :P 08:45] hehe, we could :D 08:49] how do I resolve an invalid bug report? "no change required"? 08:49] * scarf|away is now known as scarf 08:51] notrepro if it's not reproducible 08:52] or no-change-required if it's just flat wrong, I guess 08:52] is the report wrong as in not happening 08:52] or wrong as in not a bug? 08:52] those should be notrepo and nochange respectively, I think 09:01] there's a "won't fix" too 09:02] that's what i usually use for "i disagree with the premise behind this report" 09:03] 'no change required' for "it already works this way, what are you talking about" 09:03] and 'not reproducable' for "it doesn't already work this way, what are you talking about" 09:05] also, i like the idea of monsters using submerging as a way to sneak up on the player, unsubmerging to attack 09:05] 03j-p-e-g * r9af80fca276a 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/animals/hog_player.png: Replace player hog tile with one based on Porkchop's creation. Thanks! 09:05] 03j-p-e-g * r5495fc57daf0 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (9 files in 3 dirs): Move transformation tiles into their own folder player/transform. 09:28] shift-moving in levelmap misbehaves near the border (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=510) by rob 09:31] * dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 09:31] * ChanServ sets mode: +o dpeg 09:31] cheers 09:31] dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 09:31] !messages 09:31] (1/2) due said (12h 31m 33s ago): Will do. I plan to do Troves, amphibious creatures, and crocodile rename tonight. 09:31] !messages 09:31] (1/1) bhaak said (8h 43m 42s ago): some preliminary results for the nethack poll. I'm still doing categorization of all the answers. hope to have this finished by this week-end. http://manyeyes.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/users/Patric+Mueller 09:32] !tell Anym http://manyeyes.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/users/Patric+Mueller 09:32] dpeg: OK, I'll let Anym know. 09:32] !seen due 09:32] I last saw due at Fri Jan 22 13:22:06 2010 UTC (3h 10m 18s ago) saying Goodnight, folk! on ##crawl-dev. 09:33] hmmm, randomizing the starting and ending points for the spawning ramp down might be a decent idea 09:37] doy: good idea 09:37] was tgw's idea, on mantis 09:37] (: 09:39] !seen greensnark 09:39] I last saw greensnark at Fri Jan 22 15:52:10 2010 UTC (47m 48s ago) saying or no-change-required if its just flat wrong, I guess on ##crawl-dev. 09:40] !tell greensnark Do you think randomising the OOD ramps (start/end) is worth it? 09:40] dpeg: OK, I'll let greensnark know. 09:46] * Eifel has left ##crawl-dev 09:51] * ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 09:52] * ortoslon has left ##crawl-dev ("Leaving.") 10:01] * Keskitalo stretches 10:06] Maybe we should branch 0.6 and future development already to keep new features from creeping in? :) 10:07] perhaps somebody else could implement the ac nerf, if it's taking so long for whoever wanted to do it.. 10:07] sounds like that's asking for a really painful merge once 0.6 gets released 10:07] considering the amount of code churn we tend to get 10:08] Zaba_: i think we're back to making progress on that now 10:08] the main ac nerf is really simple to do, you literally change just one number :P 10:08] I think 10:08] ah, okay 10:08] there are other formulas that are being changed though 10:09] well, I was referring to the whole ac/ev/armour nerf 10:11] doy: Well, I was thinking of people committing the applicable changes to both branches. (Which should be painful too, though in smaller doses.) 10:11] The difference between -4EV armor and -5EV+ for spellcasting seemed rather excessive to me, but otherwise the formulas mostly seemed okay. (Though also not sure on the new GDR yet) 10:12] the differences aren't very big as long as you meet str requirements 10:13] Yes - but those requirements hit harder than they should IMO. Seems like part of that should be transfered over to the armor skill 10:14] Don't get me wrong, it's good to have more reason to get Strength on say Spriggans, but it still feels like the current new settings have it tweaked a little too high of an impact. And I'm not talking about making GDA reasonable or anything :) 10:15] * Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 10:15] * ChanServ sets mode: +v Zaba 10:18] * ogaz has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:18] 03by * r5ae694d0e69e 10/crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Fix beam drawing in the wrong place. 10:19] In some cases you're looking at e.g. Very Good -> Useless with the old formula versus the new 10:20] 03by * rd4435c8b8bed 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Redraw SH for strength change. 10:21] And with high str and crap armor skill (instead of the other way around) it's more like Very Good -> Good 10:24] Consolidate coordinate system transformations. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=511) by rob 10:24] Keskitalo: actually, I thought I'd updated the TODO list in the item myself; also, it still doesn't seem to have updated... 10:30] * Zaba_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:30] by: I think I did manage to update it, but probably not from a fresh pull. 10:31] by: Did so via "Update Issue" - try now? 10:32] ... 10:32] I probably "updated" it to the older one :D 10:32] by: Looks like it. Sorry, I'll revert. :) 10:38] Keskitalo: looks good now 10:39] More helpful and unified scrolling prompts for formatted_scroller. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=512) by rob 10:46] !tell dpeg I don't think it's necessary to randomise the OOD ramps. I don't see any exploitable mechanic there; randomising will just make players exit the level at the lower end of the random range. 10:46] greensnark: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 10:46] greensnark: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 10:46] greensnark: you know someone will try to farm OODs... 10:46] So? 10:46] How does randomising change this? 10:47] There's a hard end to any farming they can do, which solves the mummy farming issue as far as I can see 10:47] hmmm, you know 10:48] hells and pan don't even need to be exempt from the rampdown thing 10:48] Yes 10:48] since there are an infinite number of pan levels, and hell has hell effects 10:48] Hells are not a major problem in terms of farming, since it can't be scripted effectively when you're going to land in the Abyss every so often 10:48] yes 10:49] Pan levels can be farmed 10:49] But stopping spawns in Pan levels just means the player moves to the next Pan level 10:49] Unless we stop spawns in Pan altogether 10:49] That still allows the player to move on and use the non-respawn monsters 10:49] right, so we may as well make it consistent 10:50] also, dpeg has supported the idea for a while of making pan levels get increasingly difficult, the more you visit 10:51] Difficult in what way 10:51] not sure, higher hd pan lords was part of it at least, i think 10:51] increasing the spawn rate and number of initial monsters would work 10:54] It doesn't actually need to be consistent here, though - Pan and the Abyss, at least, are clearly special areas and it is pretty understandable if the spawns never drop off there. 10:54] well, sure, it could go either way 10:54] Seems lke not a big deal either way probably 10:54] i'd just be in favor of consistency, if it's not going to make a difference 10:54] but yeah, not a big deal 10:55] Fair. 11:03] an old idea of mine was that monster generation should ramp up in Abyss (use total time spent there) whereas for Pan, difficulty of random demons would increase with total time spent 11:03] dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 11:03] 03by * r16ddaad714a3 10/crawl-ref/source/cio.cc: Change cursorxy to always use screen coordinates. 11:03] but Erik blocked this, saying that Pan is intentionally scummable 11:05] dpeg: is the pan overhaul a possibility for 0.7, do you think? 11:05] doy: yes, would be 11:06] just need to agree on something 11:06] and Erik effectively vetoed the thing 11:06] yeah, should probably move that fr over to the wiki 11:06] and I'd rather spent my discussion time with him on the Temple system (which he also wanted to keep as is) 11:10] Twinge: in general, it seems best for a new effect to be meaningful before we water it down 11:10] this is why we should keep the effect of Str on AEVP as in the proposal (and in fact, syllogism suggested to use 4 instead of 39 11:10] 3) 11:11] ac nerf is the last remaining feature for 0.6, right? 11:13] yes 11:13] there's still a lot of polish, of course 11:13] and 11:13] yes 11:13] !seen henryci 11:13] I last saw henryci at Thu Jan 21 21:59:56 2010 UTC (20h 13m 44s ago) quitting without a message. 11:16] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 11:16] things that still need cleaning up before release include: new message window stuff, ^O screen, ballistos, ds mutations, finish drawing new tiles, possibly a few tweaks to the new rod stuff 11:17] along with various minor bug fixes 11:17] doy: well, there are still some open ends: DS, noise, div items 11:17] * scarf|away is now known as scarf 11:17] ah, div stuff too 11:17] forgot about that 11:17] doy: we can work without new div items, but I don't know 11:17] would have been nice to have the div god, too 11:17] I hope he doesn't get lost 11:18] at this point, that should probably be 0.7 11:18] yes 11:18] we need testing and polish for the new gods already 11:19] fedhas seems to be getting a reasonable amount of attention so far 11:19] i still have heard very little about jivya 11:19] yes, Fedhas is cool and interesting 11:19] Nabend guys! 11:19] I am not sure if Che has an audience beyond Nagas at the moment 11:19] Hallooooo! 11:19] oh, and i've heard even less about che 11:20] !lg * cv=0.6 s=-god 11:20] 15585 games for * (cv=0.6): 36x Jiyva, 43x Beogh, 50x Feawn, 79x Nemelex Xobeh, 83x Elyvilon, 147x Fedhas, 148x Cheibriados, 166x Yredelemnul, 178x Kikubaaqudgha, 180x Lugonu, 234x The Shining One, 302x Xom, 316x Sif Muna, 324x Vehumet, 496x Okawaru, 501x Makhleb, 516x Zin, 714x Trog, 11072x 11:20] Heyaa heyaa! 11:20] getting about as much play as fedhas, at least 11:20] * by has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 11:20] * by_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:20] * ChanServ sets mode: +v by_ 11:20] !lg * god=fedhas s=xl 11:20] 147 games for * (god=fedhas): 18x 9, 17x 10, 16x 4, 15x 8, 12x 12, 12x 5, 11x 7, 8x 11, 7x 6, 5x 2, 4x 14, 4x 13, 3x 27, 3x 18, 3x 1, 2x 15, 2x 16, 1x 17, 1x 3, 1x 21, 1x 23, 1x 26 11:20] !lg * god=cheibriados s=xl 11:21] 148 games for * (god=cheibriados): 27x 9, 19x 8, 17x 10, 17x 7, 10x 11, 10x 6, 9x 12, 7x 4, 6x 5, 5x 14, 5x 3, 4x 13, 3x 15, 2x 18, 2x 27, 1x 19, 1x 1, 1x 20, 1x 16, 1x 2 11:21] people seem to be less successful with che though 11:21] cause you need to be naga 11:22] well, "need" 11:22] i'd think that ponderousify would mitigate a lot of that need 11:23] but i haven't actually tried it seriously 11:23] !lg * ktyp=winning god=cheibriados s=name 11:23] No games for * (ktyp=winning god=cheibriados). 11:24] !lg * ktyp=winning god=fedhas s=name 11:24] 3 games for * (ktyp=winning god=fedhas): 1x Omniguy, 1x heteroy, 1x pointless 11:24] !lg * ktyp=winning god=cheibriados max=xl 11:24] No games for * (ktyp=winning god=cheibriados max=xl). 11:24] !lg * god=cheibriados max=xl 11:24] 148. Zippy the Destroyer (L27 NaRe), worshipper of Cheibriados, splashed by acid on Slime:6 on 2009-11-15, with 488772 points after 130628 turns and 6:53:19. 11:24] !lg * god=cheibriados max=xl -2 11:24] 147. 78291 the Ninja (L27 NaWr), worshipper of Cheibriados, blasted by a greater mummy (divine providence) in Zig:25 on 2009-12-09, with 587370 points after 165951 turns and 9:22:47. 11:24] !lg * god=cheibriados s=race 11:24] 148 games for * (god=cheibriados): 67x Naga, 19x Demonspawn, 16x Ogre, 11x Mummy, 10x Mountain Dwarf, 7x Troll, 5x Kobold, 2x Sludge Elf, 2x Deep Elf, 2x Vampire, 1x Minotaur, 1x Halfling, 1x Merfolk, 1x Hill Orc, 1x High Elf, 1x Deep Dwarf, 1x Spriggan 11:26] * Disconnected 11:27] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 11:27] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 11:27] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 11:27] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 11:32] * Twinge has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 11:33] Kind of depends on how important Slouch (did that get renamed yet?) is to the overall usefullness of Chei 11:33] That is clearly drastically better with Nagas; otherwise any non-Centaur non-Spriggan should be reasonable 11:36] random2(10) is 0-9, right? 11:37] yes 11:37] ty 11:38] * kerio92 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:38] nethack has no balance issues 11:38] * kerio92 has left ##crawl-dev 11:38] hihi - sweet :D 11:39] lol 11:39] sorry, argument in #nethack 11:39] that was indirectly my fault, I shouldn't have encouraged him 11:39] but he needs to #enhance his troll skills. they aren't at expert level :) 11:40] Napkin: any reason some tiles might be missing from that page? 11:40] which, doy? 11:40] real trolls never part 11:40] Napkin: orb guardians, orb of fire, rakshasa (that i've noticed) 11:40] bhaak: with the suggested exp pool changes, all the experience he gains in the near future will go into trolling and being a munchkin, I imagine 11:40] checking 11:41] * ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 11:41] scarf: but he won't play crawl, not even a nethack variant, only vanilla 11:41] * ortoslon has left ##crawl-dev ("Leaving.") 11:42] he wouldn't like crawl, there aren't enough exploits 11:42] some people are incurable... 11:43] rakshasa is failing, because... 11:43] > grep -i \"rakshasa\" /home/services/crawl/source/crawl-git/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h 11:43] MONS_RAKSHASA, 'R', YELLOW, "rakshasa", 11:43] MONS_RAKSHASA_FAKE, 'R', YELLOW, "rakshasa", 11:43] next dc-mon.txt is searched for MONS_RAKSHASA\nMONS_RAKSHASA_FAKE 11:44] is god wrath meant to be able to directly one-shot a character, by the way? 11:44] scarf: depends on how strong the character is 11:44] fair enough 11:45] I was wondering if it was like angry Xom, who's supposed to be incapable of killing you directly 11:46] Bored Xom or Abandoned Xom doesn't have those same qualms 11:46] Xom has qualms? 11:46] I thought it was just a mechanical problem 11:46] arg.. comments in dc-mon.txt? 11:46] shit... excuse me 11:47] !seen zelgadis 11:47] Sorry dpeg, I haven't seen zelgadis. 11:48] * Disconnected 11:48] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 11:48] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 11:48] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 11:48] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 11:48] by_: it's broken? 11:49] it only works on body armour contrary to intention, and optimal play dictates wearing it for weak enemies but not when exploring 11:49] description for death cob: "A dreadful undead cob of maize. Look, this one was probably a mistake. We're sorry." 11:49] hmmm 11:49] by_: ah 11:49] (: 11:49] by_: good to know 11:49] there was some discussion on this; see wiki; one approach was to give a piety hit for taking off the armour 11:50] by_: good points 11:50] * by_ is now known as by 11:50] by: they're written down somewhereß 11:50] ? 11:50] those 3 fixed, doy - let me know, if you find more 11:51] http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:feedback:god:cheibriados&s[]=cheibriados 11:51] it's difficlut to match all cases on first try :) 11:51] dpeg: you wrote most of that page 11:51] by: good 11:51] by: erm :) 11:51] I still think that being full or better should work out for Che 11:51] Napkin: death ooze 11:51] there have been some changes around that, but I didn't follow closely 11:53] guys? could you fix dc-mon.txt please? 11:53] Napkin: how is it broken? 11:54] what is wrong with it? 11:54] "undead/skeletal_dragon MONS_SKELETAL_DRAGON" 11:54] some contain a full path - while all others don't... grrr :-P 11:55] I think it's just relative to rltiles/dc-mon ? 11:55] fixed, doy 11:56] very difficult to match all cases 11:56] yes, it is, greensnark 11:56] Oh, there's a %sdir thing as well 11:57] everything else uses the %sdir - almost 11:57] Butterfly tile <3 11:57] don't get me wrong, doy - keep them coming :) 11:57] sixfirhy looks hilrious 11:59] zombies don't have tiles, but that might be a separate issue 12:01] * Disconnected 12:12] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 12:12] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 12:12] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 12:12] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 12:12] snapping turtle 12:13] but in dc-mon.txt - it's "snapping_turtle.png" instead of "snapping_turtle" 12:13] *bug in dc-mon.txt - it's "snapping_turtle.png" instead of "snapping_turtle" 12:15] {giant,titanic,etc} slime creatures are not mentioned in mon-data.h 12:15] i'm still generating maps with two disconnected features, despite ending the vault def with 'validate {{ return glyphs_connected('?', '<') }}' are there any other ways to do it? 12:16] Mu_: Is this map somewhere we can look at it? 12:18] * Disconnected 12:18] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 12:18] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 12:18] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 12:18] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 12:19] I'm not sure how subvaults interact with the connectivity check 12:19] :( 12:19] Especially if your subvaults use ? and < themselves 12:19] Do they? 12:19] nope 12:20] Oh, is that subvault the only one 12:20] I could try it 12:20] two 12:20] Is this file sufficient to try it 12:20] yep 12:20] it wont always generate disconnected maps 12:20] * ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 12:20] it's very basic atm while i just try and get subvaults working 12:21] doy: no MONS_ORANGE_STATUE in dc-mon.txt - seems like their tile is created differently 12:21] is it okay that AoRage and Trog give me two different berserk abilities? 12:21] Napkin: they are MONS_ORANGE_CRYSTAL_STATUE 12:21] amulet's costs none, trog's costs food 12:22] ah, that seems to be another bug in dc-mon 12:22] possibly 12:23] I think all these tiles show up in-game, no? 12:23] Might be best to let one of the tiles devs make changes to dc-mon.txt :) 12:23] yeah, that's why i don't really want to mess with it myself 12:23] right 12:23] "orange crystal statue" is MONS_ORANGE_STATUE in mon-data.h, but MONS_ORANGE_CRYSTAL_STATUE in dc-mon.txt 12:23] nothing i can do to relate that 12:24] agreed about orange crystal statue 12:24] but snapping_turtle having .png is just a bug 12:24] > grep png dc-mon.txt 12:24] snapping_turtle.png MONS_SNAPPING_TURTLE 12:24] --- 12:25] Keskitalo: familiar with any of this? 12:31] * ortoslon has left ##crawl-dev ("Leaving.") 12:35] * Twinge_ has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 12:37] 03Keskitalo * r6518ffd7329a 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon.txt: Fix snapping turtle tile pick (Napkin) 12:38] Err, should check compile first, then push. Hopefully I didn't break it. (I just removed the .png so should be ok.) 12:38] * Ero_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:38] perfect, thanks :) 12:38] I'll take a look at the crystal statue too, I think I know where to look. 12:40] Damn, while holding hand of my daughter (trying to make her sleep) a colossal mistake in my submerger FR occurred to me. 12:41] So apparently dpeg thinks about submerged sushi far more than his daughter :P 12:41] :P 12:42] cannot simply rule that fish won't flee/submerge 12:42] as that would mean they're cannon fodder for the conjurers 12:42] They still are, unless we get rid of targeting things under water 12:42] Which I think is a good idea 12:42] well, I want a better system 12:42] Getting rid of the underwater targeting, I mean 12:42] The orange crystal statue thing is a simple naming consistency thing. Should we do ORANGE_STATUE or ORANGE_CRYSTAL_STATUE? :) 12:43] dpeg: i think they should still submerge, but only when waiting to attack 12:43] Keskitalo: whichever is in mon-data.h, probably 12:43] ORANGE_STATUE it is. Less line changes too. :P 12:43] I'm doing a full compile just in case so I'll push it in 30 mins. :) 12:44] dpeg: have submergers tend to stay submerged, unless you're adjacent to them, at which point they unsubmerge and attack 12:44] and only resubmerge if you run away 12:44] doy: submerged attack is in my proposal -- did you read itß 12:45] This motherbloody right Shift key is not working. 12:45] nope! 12:45] doy: :) 12:45] that page got huge really quickly 12:45] and so i stopped following it 12:45] (: 12:45] doy: I condensed it! 12:45] please have a read 12:45] can comment here 12:45] okay 12:47] I think that melee water creatures should be hidden as soon as their target (you) is too far away (out of reach) 12:47] dpeg: I flipped through it and generally I approve! I think having them not submerge just because they're low on health is good already. Ranged/conjurer problem is true of course. As Darshan points out the targetting needs to be looked at. 12:47] dpeg: Yeah, pretty much. 12:48] Actually, the targetting problems should kind of vapourize when the changes go through? 12:48] Napkin: there have been a couple of bug fixes -- would you mind updating cdo? 12:48] dpeg: But wimpy fish should never actually flee. And you shouldn't be able to target submerged fish I guess. 12:49] Demonspawn received different scale mutations (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=513) by fnwc 12:59] * TGW has joined ##crawl-dev 12:59] Trogg's Burn Spellbooks (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=514) by Cryptic 13:02] dpeg: ok to make "Make ponderous" apply to any armour slot (except for shields)? 13:07] 03greensnark * r47defd3b8f3f 10/crawl-ref/source/cloud.cc: [Mantis 514] Reduce steam cloud generation for flame cloud near water. 13:17] dpeg: yes, i think your proposal is good, and i think making fish just be allowed to submerge if they can no longer reach you would be sufficient to fix it 13:19] * Jampy has joined ##crawl-dev 13:25] * Disconnected 13:25] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 13:25] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 13:25] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 13:25] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 13:25] enum constants 13:29] * Disconnected 13:33] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 13:33] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 13:33] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 13:33] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 13:33] but the player should get a chance to wear something else, so it would appear to require an extra delay that is still active after the undress delay 13:33] by: yes! 13:33] at the end of the delay, would compare ponderous level to before taking off the armour 13:33] by: agree with everything re Che 13:33] by: Oh, I see 13:33] dpeg: ok 13:34] greensnark: but it seems terribly complicated 13:34] by: Yes, and it wouldn't work for players who are swapping gear in multiple steps 13:34] damn, I once invented a solution for this 13:35] greensnark: why not? 13:35] by: Player drops armouyr, intending to walk across stash and pick up another ponderous armour 13:36] 03Keskitalo * r334aa95dff11 10/crawl-ref/source/ (rltiles/dc-mon.txt tilepick.cc): Consistency for MONS_ORANGE_STATUE enum constants. 13:36] they'd learn not to do that -- the delay could well last some 20 turns 13:36] Things like gourmand also have this issue 13:36] also, Shoal splat 13:36] !lg * place=shoal 13:36] Oh, I thought you meant a delay as in delay.cc, which doesn't allow the player to issue commands while active 13:36] by: one solution is to use prayer for this 13:36] 76. Cryptic the Severer (L16 DSBe), worshipper of Trog, hit from afar by a merfolk javelineer (javelin of penetration) (led by Ilsuiw) on Shoal:4 on 2010-01-22, with 117268 points after 40411 turns and 3:28:46. 13:37] \o/ 13:37] !lg * place=shoal -tv 13:37] 76. Cryptic, XL16 DSBe, T:40411 requested for FooTV. 13:37] greensnark: I may have confused terminology, sorry 13:37] a "duration" would be right? 13:37] Crawl confuses a lot of terms :) 13:37] Yeah, a duration sounds more like it 13:37] That's a project/wiki page right there. =) 13:38] dpeg: hmm, interesting 13:40] dpeg: prayer would have to be non-renewable for this to work, however 13:40] dpeg: or disallow movement during prayer: praying to Chei means meditating (or changing clothes) 13:42] * Disconnected 13:43] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 13:43] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 13:43] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 13:43] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 13:43] did the statdeath discussion ever make it to a wiki page, by the way? 13:44] Yes 13:44] Don't remember where though :P 13:44] Oh, ok, stats page 13:44] buuuuh @ statdeath! 13:44] http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:stats&s[]=stat&s[]=death 13:44] what's wrong with pan being scummable 13:45] once you can scum pan, you've won the game anyway 13:45] you can make it harder of course 13:46] Napkin: Great! :) 13:46] * Twinge_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:47] * Twinge- has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 13:48] and draconians.. they are so different - i would have no idea how to figure out their tiles, doy 13:49] Napkin: okay 13:49] thank you for the reports though :) 13:49] i think we fixed most of them? 13:50] yeah, i think pretty much everything is fixed now, that i saw anyway 13:50] hmmm, other than zombies 13:50] Maybe we could add a flag to monster to make it spit out the name of the tile to use 13:50] Assuming there's a single tile 13:50] Dracs may need colour overlays 13:51] * Disconnected 13:52] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 13:52] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 13:52] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 13:52] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 13:53] Looks like drac tiles use a base drac tile overlaid with a job tile 13:54] * Disconnected 13:55] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 13:55] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 13:55] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 13:55] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 13:55] i use shell to find the tile ;) 13:56] I thought you scaled the image using PHP?:) 13:57] yes, but for that I need to find a tile first :) 13:58] if you have any other idea? 13:58] okay, submerger wiki is better now 13:59] dpeg: Great! 13:59] greensnark: I grep mon-data.h with the name I get ("Sigmund" -> MONS_SIGMUND) 13:59] Keskitalo: have a look! If it's okay, I'd ask Jude if he wants to have a go. 14:00] greensnark: and then i check dc-mon.txt (MONS_SIGMUND -> sigmund) and add .png 14:00] syllogism: it is a fundamental question, whether we want any form of scumming. Personally, I think that everything should become harder as time goes on. Now, Pan shouldn't be an epic variant of Zig, but I feel we can keep the concepts distinct. (Also with Abyss ramping up monster generation over time.9 14:00] greensnark: then I search for that file in rltiles 14:00] Napkin: I was wondering if we can hack monster into giving the tile names as relative paths 14:01] monster -tile red draconian annihilator for instance 14:01] Might be tricky to compile the tile pick code without dragging in libpng and SDL though :) 14:01] what would be awesome 14:01] where is the stat death wiki page? 14:01] http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:misc:stats 14:02] syllogism: as far as you are concerned, the only thing on the AC wiki page that needs care is the GDR formula? 14:02] Napkin: <3 14:02] :) 14:02] a player's combined scales level should be capped at 3 (full) 14:02] TGW: yes 14:02] cool 14:04] oh, the stat death proposal is quite good, I added it to my private 0.7 agenda :) 14:05] Robe of Clouds floor tile (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=516) by Porkchop 14:05] * Mu_ has quit IRC ("Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.") 14:06] porkchop and purge are racing for the Most New Tiles title 14:06] hehe 14:07] cdo is racing the quarter million hits a month ;> 14:07] there should be combined CDO and CAO statistics 14:07] the CAO numbers are depressing :) 14:08] and CAO has those awesome stats! 14:08] someone should write a post about them :) 14:08] Napkin: but they're going downhill since quite some time because all the cool kids play on that CDO server 14:09] I meant the 0.5 game stats website 14:09] * Twinge has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 14:09] Napkin: I mean the same. 14:09] CAO could do combined scoring 14:09] CAO includes CDO's stats in that 14:10] syllogism: still here? 14:10] doesn't it already? 14:10] CAO includes CDO stats, but only from stable games 14:10] yes 14:10] of course only stable 14:10] And most players play CDO for the trunk games :) 14:10] http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/per-day.html ??? 14:10] well.. you guys should release already :D 14:10] syllogism: did you read my question above? 14:10] care as in needs to be looked into? 14:10] I'm in favour of an Ubuntu-style release model :) 14:10] syllogism: yes 14:10] greensnark: how's thatß 14:11] Set a hard six-month deadline, and feature freeze with whatever's in by that point :) 14:11] Anything that doesn't make the deadline gets pushed to next release 14:11] hehe - harsh! 14:11] Napkin: I am trying to push it, trust me. Whenever I send an email on that errant, at first nothing happens, and soon enough someone will make a new portal vault, or a new layout etc. 14:11] dpeg: The problem is that there are outstanding items for 0.6 14:12] greensnark: yes, that's good, but Crawl is not a project for fixed deadlines. 14:12] Once AC fix is in, we should branch immediately 14:12] * Twinge_ has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 14:12] greensnark: I know and I have been pushing AC since a looooong time ago. 14:12] what i was about to say - branch :) 14:12] Once we've branched the release will settle pretty fast 14:12] greensnark: it'll still require a good amount of tweaking 14:12] Yes 14:12] I told you so often that you can help by playing with syllogism's sheet! 14:12] But it won't be shaken up by new features 14:12] i don't think we'll be able to manage a release before march or april 14:12] but also, i have to admit - a _lot_ of nice stuff has made it into master branch recently! 14:13] by: still thinking about Che? 14:13] even if ac nerf gets in now 14:13] argh, doing the armour switching is hard to get right 14:13] dpeg: yes 14:13] Napkin: yes! 14:13] high end gdr numbers are fine, but since 10-15% has little to no effect, gdr basically plays no role until the very end 14:13] by: I once had a solution without praying, I think. 14:13] Without the AC nerf I think we're just four weeks from a stable build 14:13] With the Ac nerf, it'll obviously take longer 14:13] syllogism: enough to tweak the (Armour+13)/17 numbers? 14:13] dpeg: ? 14:15] * Disconnected 14:16] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 14:16] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 14:16] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 14:16] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 14:16] greensnark: there are now two workable ideas to save the ballisto, so I don't worry there 14:16] ballistos when they first went in *were* unstoppable many times 14:16] !seen caotto 14:16] Sorry dpeg, I haven't seen caotto. 14:16] but it was corrected pretty fast :p 14:16] !seen caotto_ 14:16] Sorry dpeg, I haven't seen caotto. 14:16] !seen pointless 14:16] I last saw pointless at Wed Nov 26 04:55:29 2008 UTC (about 1y 8w 2d 16h 21m 29s ago) saying But the user was not online. 14:16] Wandering spores could do with less ballisto generation, I guess 14:16] March or April sounds really good, honestly. :) 14:16] yeah, i think the proposals we have now for ballistos should make them fine 14:16] greensnark: yes, that's the main issue 14:17] greensnark: exactly 14:17] !seen pointless_ 14:17] I last saw pointless at Wed Nov 26 04:55:29 2008 UTC (about 1y 8w 2d 16h 21m 51s ago) saying But the user was not online. 14:17] heh - my dad cursed nicely about the ballisto :D 14:17] 0.6 seems like the biggest release yet in terms of new features 14:17] I am not sure about the status of the noise project. 14:17] dpeg: I'd suggest leaving it in whatever state it is for 0.6 :P 14:17] noise could really get postponed 14:17] syllogism: and every time we promise ourselves to "make it really small, this time" 14:17] we didn't add anything that depends critically on it 14:18] dpeg: you can leave noise as is -- the stealth game isn't broken 14:18] greensnark: sure. Matthew operates on a rather erratic basis. 14:18] by: yes, I played a bit to note that 14:18] and really, div stuff would be fine the way it is now too 14:18] Yes 14:18] one thing that might be worth doing is to make controlled blink silent -- currently you'll wake everything except those on the edge of LOS I believe 14:18] But does anyone if these are true now: (a) Monsters fighting monsters makes noise (important for allies/summons). (b) spellcasting noise is different? 14:19] If I have time this weekend I shall examine the AC math 14:19] (b) certainly 14:19] But I'm really quite unfamiliar with things like GDR and spellcasting penalties :P 14:19] greensnark: <3 14:19] casting spells in general causes you to wake everything within radius of spell level 14:19] greensnark: this holds for everybody, except perhaps sorear, syllogism, dis_astranagant, Brent 14:19] and I think beams make noise on impact 14:20] by: right, I remember that one 14:20] dpeg: also monsters fight outside player LOS much better nowadays, which helps also against player summons 14:20] cool 14:20] the only things that are absolutely critical for the release are the ac nerf, finishing the message window rewrite, and getting the rest of the new tiles drawn 14:21] you'll often see missiles flying at your summons from outside LOS 14:21] doy: Yes 14:21] <3 stone soup! 14:21] there are a bunch of other tweaks that would be really nice, but nothing else should really be a release blocker, i think 14:21] And release stability 14:21] doy: we collected a list of outstanding items today, do you still have it? 14:21] dpeg: on irc? yeah 14:21] by: another bit about Che. My original idea was that ponderousifying should also improve the armour... in the end, it could lead to randarts. Should I/we flesh out a model? 14:21] But a couple of weeks on cdo without major new features going in should fix stability bugs 14:22] okay, let's target the AC change for next week 14:22] so that people can look into it this weekend :) 14:22] and once the AC is in, feature freeze 14:22] btw.. i might have to take CDO down one day or another - need to repartition :D 14:22] that sheet doesn't take into account gdr can't be higher than your total ac. Doesn't really affect the new formulas but it does inflate GDR old figures 14:22] but aren't really important 14:23] ah 14:23] it's kinda like... 150 additional mb used per day 14:23] GDR is a very weird beast 14:23] it's pretty unnecessary in my opinion 14:23] it doesn't do much and it's complicated 14:23] I think it is okay with the other changes 14:24] I could make CPM interesting 14:24] syllogism: I guess a good design would be obtained by answering the following questions: what GDR should plate mail at 0 skill give? And which at skill 27ß 14:24] yes but it's also important to look at what the actual effect of having 20% gdr is 14:25] @?? stone giant 14:25] stone giant (15C) | Speed: 10 | HD: 16 | Health: 48-128 | AC/EV: 12/2 | Damage: 45 | Res: 06magic(85) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2033. 14:26] because obviously 20% gdr doesn't mean you take 20% less damage on average 14:26] given same ac and 0 vs 20% gdr 14:27] and it only applies in melee 14:27] dpeg: I like the water proposal. The proposed alligators might get very interesting, as you can't be sure if the turbulence will follow you on-land. 14:28] Dropping targetting on water creatures -> <3 14:29] 03by * r9c721b900ca5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godabil.cc godabil.h invent.cc): Allow Cheibriados worshippers to ponderousify any armour slot. 14:29] 03by * re31a025185bd 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.h: Bring did_god_conduct header parameter naming in line with implementation. 14:29] 03by * r44ecb0af9a9b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (enum.h it_use2.cc religion.cc): Cheibriados piety loss for unequipping ponderous armour. 14:31] dpeg: Dropping even polearms from the picture might be beneficial; polearm of reaching -> free fish sticks. 14:32] -> everyone lugs one around 14:32] * Twinge- has quit IRC (No route to host) 14:32] I agree on disabling all attacks on submerged creatures 14:34] it's rather counterintuitive for you to be able to walk onto the same square as a submerged monster, by the way 14:35] That's going. 14:35] Happily! :) 14:35] Yeah, that's been nothing but a source of bugs :P 14:35] why was it even possible in the first place? 14:36] Probably because the player and monsters are handled entirely different and someone thought it would be cool to use that for submerging 14:36] There have been numerous bugs where a monster that can't submerge winds up on the player's position 14:37] The classic is that 0.1 death where an electric golem blinked onto the player's position 14:37] ANd beat the player to death before they could work out where it was 14:37] I suppose gdr has a more noticeable effect if your ac is closer to the gdr% and the enemy hits hard 14:37] but that rarely happens 14:37] couldn't the player run? 14:38] actually, that reminds me rather of engulfing in NetHack, where the player ends up /inside/ the monster 14:38] and has to 1v1 it from the inside 14:39] there's still the issue of air elementals 14:39] what about them? 14:40] ok to just make submerged monsters immune to beams? 14:41] branch? 14:41] by: master :P 14:44] * hashc has joined ##crawl-dev 14:48] "I only survived thanks to a scroll of fog" on Zot:5 <3 14:49] Keskitalo: hm, the polearms bit was an attempt to keep the mental image of the fishpole (cool!) with another perk for the polearms skill 14:50] dpeg: Yes, but I think it's unfortunately to overall detriment 14:50] dpeg: I liked the idea at the time, but a) it's a spoiler b) it produces incredibly grindy play 14:50] * SiberSchool has joined ##crawl-dev 14:51] greensnark: would be much less grindy with my proposal, it's pretty radical 14:51] Plus it's not a Polearms perk if everyone would carry one around to bore themselves with :] 14:51] Keskitalo: okay, I agree that reaching for distance 2 is not good 14:51] Yeah, way too many players carrying around a spear just to kiill fish 14:51] but getting one attack on the hidden monster next to you is probably okay 14:51] it will surface in the next turn anyway 14:52] If we fix the various submerging-monster AI idiocies, it'll be fine 14:52] dpeg: Yeah, that does sound good. 14:52] greensnark: yes, that's all in 14:52] Ok, will redo the thing again :) 14:52] dpeg: And a decent perk; could be very good for Swamp/Shoals! 14:53] To get the first hit. (Assuming fishes, at least some, take one turn to appear?) 14:53] Like @.~ --> .@~ --> .@; 14:53] When you say "good for SHoals" you mean "produce more splats in Shoals", I hope :) 14:53] greensnark: :) 14:54] greensnark: Hey, there's some Shoals comments in the SA thread. 14:54] I follow the SA thread :) 14:54] Someone called the Shoals incredibly treacherous <3 14:54] Of course, he was playig a tiles version that showed boss merfolk using the same tiles, so! 14:54] The one that begins "Whoa, Shoals is a bloody deathtrap" has a nice story about dying there with a buff char. 14:55] * ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 14:55] Sounds excellent <3 14:55] http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3155652&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=126#post371187195 14:55] Keskitalo: done 14:55] dpeg: Great! 14:56] !seen due 14:56] I last saw due at Fri Jan 22 13:22:06 2010 UTC (8h 34m 9s ago) saying Goodnight, folk! on ##crawl-dev. 14:56] Sleep's over! 14:56] Yes, 8 hours already! 14:56] you should call him 14:56] by: :) 14:56] Definitely call him 14:56] He does not live alone, I think. 14:56] Where does he get off sleeping so long :P 14:57] dpeg: That's fine! 14:57] dpeg, closable: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=514 14:58] players are not only wimps but also cowards :) (re SA thread) 14:58] i think the new shoals is much more challenging (i think ive lost 2 out of 3 guys that have gotten there), but its a lot more interesting and fun 14:58] The early iterations of the new Shoals monsters were quite brutal 14:58] But I think they're pretty reasonable now 14:58] oh is it possible that the shoals rune was burried in deep water for ever 14:58] i had a game where that appeared to be the case 14:58] Shoals was always balanced with ref to Snake, not Swamp :) 14:59] Cryp71c: thanks! 14:59] Jampy: It's possible for the tide to wash into huts, but it'll go out again eventually 14:59] Possibly you just missed a hut? 15:00] i could have missed a hut 15:00] but there was a hut with 2 tiles of deep water 15:00] There are voices of sanity in SA. Bug! 15:00] greensnark: is Swamp going to be balanced with reference to Shoals, some time? 15:00] in the middle of the hut 15:00] I also wanted to get your guys' opinion on this: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=460 15:00] scarf: no 15:00] well 15:01] swamp will be changed 15:01] Ilsuiw's hut has gappy diagonal walls and is filled with water, is that the one? 15:01] but it really doesn't need to be balanced with respect to anything else 15:01] agreed, at the moment it just feels rather like a rather arbitrary branch 15:01] I submitted a fix, but never really cleared it with anyone..and thus wanted to see if anyone had a better solution than simply changing the distance to 20 units. 15:01] The tide isn't entirely deterministic, so it could leave water pockets behind as it recedes out of a hut 15:01] Cryp71c: thanks, I replied. 15:01] what's the XP ration of shoals to swamp? 15:01] Best fix is to just make it wash items out again 15:01] s/ration/ratio/ 15:02] i should have taken a screenshot or saved the game green. im not totally sure about the layout =( 15:02] by: Shoals is close to 1.8x Swamp xp 15:02] ??swamp 15:02] swamp[1/2]: Accessed from the Lair somewhere between levels 2 and 7. Five levels deep. Expect watery terrain and hydras throughout. A decaying rune lies at the bottom, guarded by swamp dragons and hydras. As swamp drakes emit mephitic clouds, enter not without poison resistance or enhanced mental clarity, unless you like embarassing drowning deaths. 15:02] http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/SeraphRoy/BucklerofWin.png haha what 15:02] Varies quite a bit both ways 15:02] greensnark: which is not the intention :) 15:02] should just make swamp 9 levels deep :) 15:02] by: pfff :) 15:02] by: <3!!! 15:02] dpeg: My hands are tied, can't make an interesting branch without that much xp :P 15:03] Shoals and SNake are very close in xp 15:03] Swamp has nothing but a few hydras all the way down to Swamp:5 :P 15:03] And there it has a few more hydras and swamp dragons :P 15:03] swamp needs a better monster set 15:04] This was nice to read: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3155652&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=127#post371286612 15:04] sleep now 15:04] * by has quit IRC ("night") 15:04] by: Cheers! 15:05] <-- slow 15:05] lol "The orc corpse of Blork the orc " 15:05] someone is using purge :/ i don't think i am the owner of the nick though 15:05] The orc corpse of Blork the orc (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=517) by Stathol 15:05] * purge__ is now known as purge_ 15:07] * Disconnected 15:07] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 15:07] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 15:07] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 15:07] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 15:08] well, if it has they haven't logged in 15:09] yeah i know i am asking in #freenode if i can get it 15:09] ogaz interested? :P lol 15:10] New rods might be a bit much: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3155652&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=128#post371368099 15:10] purge_, probably not. They've been registered for 3 years, typically the 'reclaim' date (the date that an account can be unregistered and thus made available for registration again) is 8 weeks + a week for every week of registered time. 15:10] Although I'm sure they'd say if he hadn't been on in 6-8 months, that its available 15:11] yeah its only been a little over 3 months it seems 15:11] purge_: I like clicking on links(if I recognize where they come from) 15:11] ocd? :) 15:11] Keskitalo: yes, i've been kinda concerned about them 15:11] they went in without much discussion, and i haven't heard much feedback in general 15:11] Keskitalo: if you spot good content in SA, make sure to at least link it from a Mantis item. 15:11] Cannot rely on SAers to file. 15:11] so it's hard to say how well balanced the new stuff actually is 15:12] doy: would you add a note on rods to the "test for 0.6" wiki? 15:12] that sounds like it's more of an issue with summoning in general than with rods, but until we fix summoning, it might be better to not hand out quite so many cheap sources of it 15:13] Cryptic: Every year of registered time, not every week, is what I remember being told 15:13] purge_, on a related note, I'm waiting to get Cryptic 15:13] Twinge, ah, I spoke with someone a week or so ago, but he may have misinformed me. 15:13] week = week seems insane, though year = week seems kind of weird too to be honest ;) 15:13] yeah I know 15:13] I thought it strange 15:14] I'm waiting until mid-feb or march and gonna try and take Cryptic 15:14] its been 7 weeks as of now, and only registered for 24 15:14] ##crawl-sa is ---> that way 15:14] doy, our bad 15:14] dpeg, IDK why I'm commenting on the thread..I guess for posterity, you think the listen distance would better be LOS? 15:14] There's ##crawl-sa? Cool. 15:15] Keskitalo: shrug 15:15] there could be if you join it 15:15] (: 15:15] Is there really ##crawl-sa? 15:15] i'm just making stuff up 15:15] "I thought that was just ##crawl" 15:15] :) 15:16] I'll add the rod bit to 0.6 page. 15:16] Cryp71c: we are talking about noises from someone floundering in shallow water? 15:16] Keskitalo: thank you 15:16] dpeg, creatures floundering, yeah. 15:16] (confused, whatever) 15:17] In my patch, if you can see them it says the monster name + " splashes around" or something like that...if its within 20 cells, it says "Something splashes around" 15:18] should shields(besides bucklers) affect casting more? according to the SA forum its rare to see a caster ascending without a shield? 15:20] purge_: pretty sure non-buckler shields do affect casting quite a bit 15:21] yep, anything non-buckler affects your EV, and thus your casting by quite a bit. 15:21] using a shield is the equivalent of losing something like 7-8 points of int for success rates, and a large shield is like 15 15:21] dpeg: Check out Adeon's Shoal rune grab :P 15:21] Cryp71c: let's wait with it, for floundering may be gone Real Soon. 15:22] greensnark: where? 15:22] dpeg: floundering's already gone 15:22] Cryp71c: ^ 15:22] due made the amphib changes 15:22] dpeg, close that request then for me? 15:22] Cryp71c: yes, will do 15:22] thanks 15:22] !lm Adeon rune=barnacled -tv:>2 15:22] I thought I was dead! it was the first time I've been to shoals 15:22] 1. AdeonTwo, XL24 OgSt, T:99051 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 15:22] thanks for bringing it up, I hope you didn't have too much trouble with the patch 15:23] XL 24 :) 15:23] BTW, I was thinking maybe shields should affect spell success rates of large races the way that bucklers do for normal-sized races 15:23] dpeg: Og, so effectively XL 16 in power :) 15:23] greensnark: not true!!! Og = powerhouse 15:23] Just kidding :) 15:24] also, they level so fast 15:24] ogaz: I think size matters already? 15:25] I'm off to sleep. Cheers! 15:25] Wow, that ttyrec is messing with FooTV 15:25] what's it doing? 15:25] greensnark: yes :/ 15:25] yes i've eaten half my popcorn bowl waiting for it to lead 15:25] * Twinge has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:25] Keskitalo: bye! 15:25] load* 15:25] It seems to be pegging CPU for some reason 15:25] dpeg: I don't actually know 15:25] Ok, there we go 15:26] AC 7, EV 10 <3 15:26] greensnark: you manage termcast? CDO? 15:26] No, I host FooTV 15:27] FooTV is just one of the termcast channels 15:27] And Napkin runs CDO 15:27] ah okay 15:28] awesome 15:29] It'd been even better if he'd fought the kraken :) 15:29] is there any reason why "sea snake" isn't "serpent"? 15:30] No pressing reason, no :) 15:30] sea serpent implies something much larger, more threatening, and less poisonous than a snake 15:31] I can do the more threatening bit any day :P 15:31] crawl is being spammed by the java virus 15:31] #crawl i mean 15:31] Anyone on Op on ##crawl? 15:31] Sea snakes are more modeled after the real beast than the mythical beastie 15:31] But the mythical thing could be used instead 15:32] Napkin and Elly have ops on ##crawl 15:32] So does rax 15:34] I do not have 'real ops' 15:34] but what's up? 15:34] Timbermaw: they were attacking #nethack earlier 15:34] elly: spambot attack 15:34] oh, sorry 15:42] ##crawlers attacked #nethack ?! 15:42] playing to many Trogites or what? 15:44] dpeg: no, the spambots did 15:45] no one has berserkitis dont worry 15:47] okay, was a bit worried 15:47] still wonder that SA is so tame 15:48] * Retrieving ##crawl-dev modes... 15:48] 03j-p-e-g * r6033313e12eb 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (dc-item.txt item/weapon/holy_scourge.png): Replace holy scourge tile with a more glowy version, also by Porkchop. 15:50] * Ero_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:55] !tell due Are the splashing noise messages gone along with the floundering? 15:55] dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 15:56] * scarf has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 15:57] Actually, I'm not sure if floundering went or just water attacks 15:57] Floundering doesn't sound like a bad thing in itself 15:58] yes 15:58] one of the ideas for big species was to make them immune to floundering 15:59] a dex component to floundering would be nice 16:00] Naga are immune to floundering 16:01] Well, they were, I think floundering is gone now 16:07] did that get in? awesome 16:07] i don't really agree with totally removing floundering, by the way 16:07] it's excessive at the current level, but a 10% chance or something would be interesting 16:08] * pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:08] * ChanServ sets mode: +v pointless_ 16:10] pointless_: Hi! 16:10] Hi 16:10] pointless_: all Fedhas stuff is in, only the ballistos are left? 16:10] more or less 16:10] * Cryp71c has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 16:11] I'm not completely happy with the current evolution UI, and some changes could be made (like making sunlight affect an area instead of inflicting backlit on monsters) 16:11] agree on sunlight 16:12] but we need to make sure it's the ability to train Inv with, right? 16:12] Sure 16:12] As I said, I found Evolution to be much better than before. 16:12] Definitely good enough for release. 16:14] pointless_: so the two proposals are: (1) spores leave a trail. (2) spores can move on their own, creating ballistos only upon explosion. 16:14] Was non-amphib monsters missing attacks when standing in shallow water removed? 16:14] Hellooo 16:14] due: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 16:14] !messages 16:14] (1/3) Mu_ said (9h 14m 15s ago): ask me about my cekugob map 16:14] !messages 16:14] (1/2) kilobyte said (8h 46m 44s ago): What would you think about rolling boulder traps in Cekugob? 16:14] dpeg: Yes 16:14] !messages 16:14] (1/1) dpeg said (19m 26s ago): Are the splashing noise messages gone along with the floundering? 16:14] due!!! 16:14] dpeg: Ididn't touch floundering noises. 16:14] You have been sleeping for TEN hours! :) 16:15] I know, I needed it. 16:15] * Kyrris has joined ##crawl-dev 16:15] @whereis AdeonTwo 16:15] AdeonTwo the Ogre Mage (L24 OgSt), a worshipper of Vehumet, is currently on Vault:8 after 108379 turns. 16:15] Wrong channel. Whoops. 16:15] Kyrris: --> ##crawl for that? 16:15] dpeg: I usually put them in the other order. Confused myself. 16:16] elly: No +R? 16:16] oh, I could do that 16:16] * ChanServ sets mode: +o due 16:17] dpeg: Happy with the amphib changes? 16:17] due: yes, a lot! 16:17] Good, me too. 16:17] due: I did a fairly radical proposal at submergers. Care to look at it? 16:17] due: floundering is completely gone by now? 16:17] Though I believe I have you and Darshan to blame for the initial amphibious speed boost, based on a comment I read in the source. ;) 16:18] No, floundering is still there! 16:18] good! 16:18] I like floundering. 16:18] Yay floundering 16:18] so in particular the splashing noises are still in, and Cryptic's patch is not going to waste 16:18] So do we need the message for monsters missing attacks due to floundering while out of sight/invisible or can I remove it? 16:18] gotta un-close it now 16:18] pointless_: We can just reduce the range of the splashing noises. 16:18] pointless_: if at all, that message should only come up in LOS, imo 16:19] Yes reducing range is the other option 16:19] pointless_: I think the messages should stay *if * you ca nsee the monster and its target. 16:19] dpeg: You get "splashes around in the water" in LOS 16:19] Might be best to just remove the "splashing noise" 16:19] greensnark: they were level wide :) 16:19] you get splashing noise if they are invisible and in sight (probably, I admit I never actually tried that) 16:19] pointless_: good point 16:20] I think that's the only case where splashing noise should be retained 16:20] Invisible but in LOS 16:20] Ok 16:20] I like invisible but in LOS splashing noises. 16:21] ok, someone gotta do that right now? 16:21] I guess I should remove the band leader setting from Ilsuiw's band 16:21] cleans up that bit 16:21] due: an opinion on the submerging stuff? 16:21] dpeg: I think pointless is on it? 16:21] I'll do it 16:21] yay 16:22] Thanks pointless_! 16:22] 03j-p-e-g * rf55474b781b3 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/FAQ.txt: Use "character background" in the FAQ. 16:22] I have play-testing posts to write. :o 16:22] 03j-p-e-g * re88af52afc27 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/item/armour/artefact/urand_clouds.png: Use Porkchop's tile for the Robe of Clouds. 16:22] Gogo playtesting posts 16:22] due: an opinion is okay for me now, so I can leave it be. Redid that page three times by now. 16:22] but yes, <3 playtesting posts 16:22] dpeg: For submerging? Sure, hang on. 16:23] Changing when monsters submerge and unsubmerge is quite easy, to. 16:23] to all: my latest proposal has no defensive submerging whatsoever. Instead, kraken get an "emit ink cloud" emergency spell, so they can flee with that 16:23] I like ink cloud emergency spell. 16:24] We could use a cloud that only travels through water. 16:24] yes 16:24] And it could not use # like thick gloom 16:24] black water! 16:24] But instead colour the water darkgrey? 16:24] yes 16:24] What do you think? 16:24] Should it still block LOS? 16:24] squids are very intelligent and do the ink -- sure! 16:24] I really like that idea. 16:25] It's a heck of a lot more interresting than submerging. 16:25] +1 16:26] +10 here ;) 16:26] I'll put it on my todo. 16:26] I can probably do it in about three minutes, it's just the recompile that would take the time. 16:26] That serpentine document beginning to straddle the worlds yet? :) 16:26] I know mine does :P 16:28] * Disconnected 16:28] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 16:28] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 16:28] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 16:28] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 16:30] * Disconnected 16:56] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 16:56] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 16:56] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 16:56] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 16:56] Well, yeah 16:57] hidden approaching etc. 16:57] * purge_ is now known as purge 16:57] But basically disabling submerging while fleeing is easy 16:57] they shouldn't flee 16:57] Yeah. 16:57] purge! tile push! 16:57] * due pushes purge. 16:57] how about instead of alligators, we make alligator men! 16:57] :D 16:57] with a bite attack! 16:57] purge: declined :) 16:58] we will call them allitaurs 16:58] * Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 16:58] dpeg: I'm moving giant lizard's colour and glyph and name, but it'll have roughly similar stats, and even similar icon. 16:58] Er, s/icon/tile/g. 16:58] due: huh? 16:58] due: okay 16:59] Giant lizard lightgreen 'l' becomes 'crocodile brown t', with similar stats and appearances. 16:59] randomly replace the Hall of Blades with the Library, full of spellcasters and spellbooks 16:59] Crocodile really emphasises the threat level of giant lizards for the early game, I think. 17:00] And it also makes them more flavourful when they get their 0.7 constrict. 17:00] hashc: that's not good enough. Need kicking spellbooks. 17:00] Animated spellbooks. 17:00] but only after the effing dancing weapons dance 17:00] ^ 17:01] They cast the spells that are found within them. 17:01] due: for the bush burning tile why can't you overlay the fire cloud tile with transparency? 17:01] animated book of the Warp 17:01] well lemme look at it in photoshop... 17:01] hashc: Prrecisely <3 17:01] purge: That might work! 17:01] Okay, I love the idea of an animated spellbook. 17:01] annimated book of annihilations. 17:01] I love the idea of a burning spellbook. 17:02] lol would that mean you could walk in as a Trogg-worshipper and af ? 17:02] scrap that, I also love the idea of any other burning book 17:02] Those would make awesome additions to wizards' labs. 17:02] hi trog 17:02] Cryp71c: Exactly. 17:02] dpeg: :o! 17:02] Spellbooks they're famous for that you have to deanimate to claim. 17:02] lolguyz, I cleared Library as Be! 17:02] due: it is my cultural heritage 17:02] :( 17:02] I do like the idea of a caster-flavoured replacement for the HoB 17:02] My cultural heritage is illiteracy, so I suppose that's not much of a difference. 17:02] Especially Tukima, obviously. 17:02] due: hey, not serious. But there's plenty of books which deserve it. 17:03] dpeg: I didn't think you were serious, just to clarify :) 17:03] due: "Don't worship idols of paper and wood!" :) 17:03] * due does. 17:04] I love books the most. I am like the anti-Trog. 17:04] My son can read! :) 17:04] Hooray! 17:05] Okay, 9 emails left, then play testing post. 17:05] Should I cover the Temple today? 17:05] I thin kthat might work. 17:05] good idea, perhaps also mention the new and modified gods, at least in passing? 17:05] as this is why we got there in the first place 17:06] That's coming in "Come Jiyva With Me" :) 17:06] Which I'll post sometime during the week. 17:06] cool 17:08] dpeg: Yes, there is basically one guy behind it. And he's even sitting in #freenode (and was antagonizing the ops there, though not enough to get banned.) {Off topic, I know - but I can't talk in ##crawl right now :P} 17:08] ... really? 17:08] That seems odd. 17:10] Twinge: losers without a life, nothing to get excited about. Thank the gods that the defences are working. 17:11] Email done, finally! 17:11] * due dances with Frances. 17:17] sent an email to syllogism =) 17:17] (still working on the AC front) 17:18] dpeg: Apparently most IRC networks are protected against similar by simply forcing you to give a randomzied ping reply on connect or something to that effect, which Freenode is lacking. 17:18] actually, a lot of networks are now protected by zlining you immediately if your first command is POST :P 17:19] elly: so freenode is behind the times? 17:19] yes 17:19] intentionally, I believe 17:19] they are migrating to a new ircd in less than two weeks and can't be bothered to hack the old one 17:22] Ah. 17:23] So for the next two weeks, as many people as possible will take advantage of it. 17:27] more or less 17:28] Need music. 17:28] my headphones broke :\ 17:29] :( 17:29] * due faxes new ones over. 17:29] I wish :P 17:31] 03rburnham * r728ac87d58d1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (monster.cc stuff.cc stuff.h): 0000460 : "you hear a splashing noise." message leak 17:31] 03pointless_ * r795832d886be 10/crawl-ref/source/ (monster.cc stuff.cc): Fix call to player_can_hear used for the monster splashing message 17:31] 03pointless_ * r96b195144c4a 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Fix an assert triggered by drawing sunlight in the console version 17:31] Hooray 17:31] pointless_: What do you think about sunlight harming shadows and vampires? 17:31] Or at least causing the "fear" state in nthem. 17:32] I don't really care, it doesn't seem important so I didn't bother doing anything with it 17:32] perhaps simply a message would suffice 17:32] "This battle-hardened vampire does not fall for cheap tricks like this. The vampire spawns 10.200 rats." 17:33] dpeg: Mwahaha, that's good, too. 17:33] I think a good change would be to make sunlight illuminate the aoe for some number of turns, and after making that change we could make vampires/shadows avoid those squares 17:33] pointless_: That would be nice, also. 17:33] pointless_: good thinking! 17:34] pointless_: I am a bit confused about the splashing noise message. Didn't we mean to only print it for invisible, floundering monsters in LOS? 17:34] that's what it should do now 17:34] good 17:34] ok it's not really checking LOS, just a distance function 17:35] so something out of LOS diagonally to you may still cause the message, but it seems unimportant 17:35] dpeg: when's the earliest and latest ranges for overflow altars? 17:35] 3-9, I believe 17:35] but may be 2-9 17:35] pointless_: that's okay 17:35] * due checks. 17:36] any opinions on friendly wandering mushroom AI? I'm thinking about making them follow you and only stop moving when hostiles are in sight 17:36] pointless_: what do they do right now? 17:36] dpeg: Same as hostiles. 17:36] They do the avoid your LOS thing 17:36] that hostiles do 17:37] ah 17:37] dpeg: 2-9. 17:37] thanks 17:37] well, would be cool if they followed the player, but only moving out of sight 17:39] That's what they do now basically. It's kind of weird and they seem to get stuck easily 17:40] Yeah, it's odd. 17:40] due: uploaded with burning bush, what do you think? 17:41] Burning bush tile submission (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=518) by purge 17:41] well, if that one is used, that takes care of another category on the wiki :D 17:47] purge: Hm, interesting 17:48] interesting? that doesn't sound good.. whats wrong with it? 17:49] I don't know, maybe the flame cloud should be more transparent? 17:49] Also: dpeg, we need a burning bush Beogh altar vault. 17:50] due: i thought it should stand out from the surroundings since its the source of burning, not just a cloud 17:50] Hm, yeah. 17:51] Oh I had some kind of error last night with a trog altar. I got this message sequence: Found a bloodstained altar of Trog. The book bursts into flames! Trog roars with delight! ERROR: Trigerrable already removed 17:51] due: :) 17:51] pointless_: :( 17:51] due: I kind of like it the way it is so i'll wait to see what jpeg/enne/kesk think :) 17:52] due, how do you guys keep up (on the wiki) with things that have met the approval of enough people to implement and such? I noticed that most of the brainstorming pages are (as the name suggests) lists of ideas 17:52] oh but i thought of a problem.. i need it animated don't I.... 17:52] Do discussions take place elsewhere, or just on irc and via msgs? 17:52] * Noeda has joined ##crawl-dev 17:52] * Kyrris is now known as Hidwiwi 17:53] Cryp71c: We don't. :) 17:53] Usually there isn't much that needs approval of a lot of people. 17:53] Cryp71c: just ask (on the wiki, the list, or here) whether something is codeable! Anything you're interested in right now? 17:53] Yeah. 17:53] A lot of the time it's a "coder decides" issue. 17:54] dpeg, well I've tried to help shorten the list of active bugs, both by reporting old (or already fixed) ones and tackling some of the ones that I seem capable of doing. 17:54] dpeg, but with as complex and numerous as everything tends to be, its difficult 17:54] Hehe, yeah. 17:55] For instance I went through some of the mutations code to see if the 'getting fire facets while also getting ice facets' might be something I can fix...and I've found the area where that logic would go 17:55] But it seems *slightly* outside my reach 17:55] Yeah, I don't like touching that code. 17:55] It's scary. 17:55] * Adeon has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:55] It looks very elegantyl wrote, and undocumented....which makes it difficult to follow. 17:55] dpeg: Re: vaults with visible fish, we could enforce a no_submerge flag. 17:56] due: yes 17:56] Cryp71c: are you interested in taking up stuff other than bugs? 17:57] dpeg, certainly 17:57] dpeg: I'll see if I can do a percentage of the stuff today, then. 17:57] Cryp71c: hm, what to do, off the top of my hat? 17:57] Cryp71c: contributors usually start with interface stuff 17:57] Xom additions! 17:57] dpeg: the new formula seems to more than halve gdr for everything but the crystal plate 17:58] syllogism: ah, so the quadratic effect is too strong 17:58] * SiberSchool is now known as Siber 17:58] Also, giant lizard -> crocodile. Alligator will be a new monster for swamp. 17:58] but you may have that already covered by bug hunting 17:58] due: that's good 17:58] * Hidwiwi is now known as Kyrris 18:00] * ogaz_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:01] dpeg, I don't mind contributing wherever stuff needs to get done. Obviously, something that isn't incredibly complex might minimize the amount of help I have to get from here, but anything is fine. 18:01] * ogaz has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 18:01] * ogaz_ is now known as ogaz 18:01] Whether that's documentation, interface, wherever. 18:01] * Iainuki_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:02] I work as a programmer, so I can pick up mostly anything, given a fair amount of time 18:03] Cryp71c: have a glance at http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:interface:interface 18:03] this is full of stuff, ask me about priorities :) 18:03] dpeg: Can you prof my Temple post? 18:03] due: sure, where? 18:03] ... proof. 18:03] dpeg: http://pastebin.ca/1762315 18:04] Not so much proof for english, but just sanity. 18:04] 03pointless_ * r629a7ffc5d08 10/crawl-ref/source/ (godabil.cc religion.cc): Make toadstools generated by decomposition neutral again 18:04] * Noeda is now known as Adeon 18:05] due: yes, very good stuff! 18:05] dpeg: Excellent. 18:06] I like how an ease of development change for us just created massive tactical questions for the player. 18:07] brb 18:07] due: yes! I was always aware of it, but there was... opposition :) Also, the earlier proposals were more radical (e.g. not granting access to all altars by D:9) 18:08] I love the current system. 18:08] due: i uploaded a second version, is that better? 18:10] Ooh, I like that more. 18:10] The only other thing I would do is trim the fire away from the bottom of the bush, where the stump is? 18:11] dpeg, I'll take an extended look at that list and see what pops, but I'm interested not only in contributing, but in learning...so if you feel the need to assign me something which needs to get done and would help me become more attuned to how crawl operates (at least interface wise), by all means. Just !tell me if anything comes to you. 18:11] I'm heading out for a bit. 18:11] Cryp71c: many thanks, have fun 18:11] Cryp71c: Have fun! 18:12] Wait, floundering is gone? 18:12] sorear: No, it's not. 18:12] sorear: Water attack bonus is gone. 18:12] There was a misunderstanding. 18:12] * sorear is catching up on mantis 18:12] * due sets mode: -o due 18:12] Yeah 18:13] Floundering is still there, because I think it's interesting. 18:14] dpeg: so I'm looking at this bug: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=265 what's the problem with just preventing toadstools from spawning in damaging clouds? 18:15] pointless_: is this still a problem -- do you still get punished? 18:15] you can probably get piety loss for toadstools getting created in flame clouds you placed 18:16] ah, I see 18:16] even for neutral (not player generated) toadstools? 18:16] In this case the kill would be attributed to the player and they would get (minor) piety loss for killing a protected species 18:17] hm, not sure 18:17] "You kill endangered species! Fedhas sic RPSCA on you!" 18:17] pointless_: encouraging players to not use cloud spells could be interesting 18:18] Well ignoring the issue is an option, but in the bug you seemed to want to change kill attribution rules for clouds or something, which seemed excessive to me 18:19] yes, I distance myself from that :) 18:19] The amazing backpedalling dpeg! 18:19] * due tunes in for the show? ;) 18:19] Fedhas already somewhat discourages explosion spells. Also giving clouds problems could be interesting for conjurers. Could be reallyannoying. 18:20] (We love you anyway.) 18:21] Well I don't care about this issue all that much, it's easy enough to prevent toadstools etc. from spawning in damaging clouds or we can leave it as is. 18:21] pointless_: yes, let's wait with that 18:24] * Kyrris has quit IRC 18:26] Oh, we need tree in water tiles for swamp before we can push 0.6. 18:27] I'm not sure how best to go about doing this, but tree in shallow water should probably do it. 18:28] Oh 18:28] Amulet of stasis, does that stop rot? 18:29] it shouldn't 18:29] Hm. 18:29] Why not? 18:29] It stops petrification. 18:30] due: uploaded a third version, please comment which is your favorite, then i'll see what others say and make an animation out of the favorite 18:30] also, please delete the other in game pics besides in_game_all 18:31] Ooh, like that one the most. 18:31] Done. 18:31] thanks 18:32] And comented. 18:32] due: actually i do too lol 18:32] i have a feeling it will be unamious 18:32] but i'll wait and see what at least jpeg has to say 18:33] due: stopping rot is not good 18:33] you carry it with you as a get-rid-of-rot item 18:33] Hm. 18:33] I don't mean getting rid of rot 18:33] It doesn't affect slowing or hasting that's already existant 18:34] So if you are rotting 18:34] I would say that stasis should only stop magical effects, while rot is more of a physical effect(if that makes any sense) 18:34] And you put it on, nothing should happen 18:34] But it could be used to prevent the initial start of rot, say via miasma. 18:35] hm, I think it's full enough already 18:36] Okay 18:36] what does it do currently anyways 18:36] then we have no intention of providing any form of rotting resistance for the player? 18:36] * due doesn't care eithe rway. 18:38] due: we never had one! 18:38] Yes, but miasma never depended purely on rotting resistance before! 18:38] (Well, no as far as i know.) 18:44] Almost finished the first page of commits. 18:44] Another... two to go. :/ 18:59] * cgrcykrt has joined ##crawl-dev 18:59] Hi all. It seems we are again seeing javascript based flood spam. If you are experiencing this, please do not click the links in the messages as they will cause you to repeat the spam. More information is available at http://peoplesprimary.com. Thanks! 18:59] Hi all. It seems we are again seeing javascript based flood spam. If you are experiencing this, please do not click the links in the messages as they will cause you to repeat the spam. More information is available at http://peoplesprimary.com. Thanks! 18:59] * cgrcykrt has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer) 18:59] dammit. 18:59] * ChanServ sets mode: +o due 18:59] I'd hoped to avoid doing it to this place as well 18:59] * due sets mode: +R 18:59] * elly sets mode: +R 18:59] oh, hi due :P 18:59] :p 19:00] * due sets mode: -o due 19:01] 8 consonants 19:04] * areems has joined ##crawl-dev 19:04] * areems has quit IRC (Excess Flood) 19:07] * syllogism has quit IRC (Client Quit) 19:07] * nfennughli has joined ##crawl-dev 19:08] * nfennughli has quit IRC (Broken pipe) 19:10] * fxbl has joined ##crawl-dev 19:10] * fxbl has quit IRC (K-lined) 19:15] * emukaokrufmg has joined ##crawl-dev 19:15] * kloeri__ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:16] * emukaokrufmg has quit IRC (K-lined) 19:17] kloeri__: Thanks. 19:17] On "3 days ago"! 19:17] Arg. 19:17] Thankfully, I am just summarisinng the whole messagewindow change as one block, so I can ignore most everything else. 19:17] heh 19:18] I should do play-testing summaries more often, they usually take me all day to write. 19:28] * purge has left ##crawl-dev 19:28] kloeri__: I can't set mode -e on myself. 19:30] * purge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:31] purge_: Can you speak okay? 19:31] * ChanServ sets mode: +v purge_ 19:31] umm i just registered this nick 19:31] * due has no idea if +v helps with +R. 19:31] Ah, good. :) 19:31] Are you identified to it? 19:32] -v me and let me try 19:32] yeah 19:32] * ChanServ sets mode: -v purge_ 19:32] How about now? 19:33] * purge_ has quit IRC (Client Quit) 19:34] I'll probably just take +R down shortly, there doesn't appear to be any more hits. 19:36] * ogaz has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:36] Alright, I'm back.. 19:36] Welcome back. 19:36] dpeg has skedaddled, though. 19:36] due, this may sound dumb....what language is dcss written in? :P 19:36] * purge_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:36] C++! 19:36] Lua. 19:37] lol, is it pure lua? It doesn't look like it 19:37] Vault syntax, Perl, with a dash of flex and bison throw in. 19:37] The stuff in dat/clua/ is pure Lua. 19:37] The stuff in dat/des/* is Vault syntax. 19:37] and the .cc .h files are c++? or perl? 19:38] It looks like c++, but I wasn't sure. 19:38] There are little touches of definitely not C++ syntax 19:38] those are c++ 19:38] such as? 19:38] pointless_, the if def DEBUG code doesn't appear like standard C++ 19:38] * ChanServ sets mode: +o due 19:39] #ifdef DEBUG is C++ 19:39] things that start with a #, such as #ifdef or #define are preprocessor directives 19:39] That's a standard preprocessor statement, no? 19:39] * due sets mode: -R 19:39] * due sets mode: -o due 19:39] purge_: I'll take it down for now, the onslaught seems to have stopped. 19:39] thanks :) 19:40] ah, perhaps that's why its unfamiliar, I don't think we did much preprocessor stuff in my academia 19:40] The C++ is usually esoteric, I've found. 19:40] There's a lot of macroes and weird things. 19:41] Working with the crawl source has rekindled my <3 for compiled languages. I think that's what I'll look for in my next job. 19:41] It hasn't for me. 19:41] ;) 19:41] Waiting for everything to recompile after altering enum.h? 19:41] Argh. 19:41] due, ah compilinig is part of the fun! 19:42] Well...maybe not for open source projects you're volunteering for 19:42] But its fun enough when you're being paid to wait for it to compile :P 19:42] Hehe. 19:42] Paper-ball basketball, anyone? 19:43] YAY PAGE 1! 19:43] http://xkcd.com/303/ 19:44] haha, yep :) I tried to explain that comic to my wife in the car the other day...I don't think I adequately conveyed the message, showing her might've been more effective. 19:46] purge_: I *love* the palm tree. 19:47] For the Dessert branch. :D 19:49] cool :) 19:49] unique cookie monster? 19:54] * purge_ is now known as purge 19:55] due, do you have any idea where the description code is at when you target a monster? 19:56] Cryp71c: The targetting interface stuff? 19:57] yeah 19:57] Cryp71c: I'm not sure, HAran's been doing a lot of work on that recently... 19:57] due, ah..was going to look into the shortening targetting description stuff so there's less message spam. 19:58] Ah, Haran's been working on that :) 19:58] ... I think? 19:58] Does he/she ever get on IRC? 19:58] haranp? Yes, but I haven't seen him since last week. 19:59] Oh, also, s/him/em/g. 19:59] I am not actually sure on preferred pronoun, someone will likely clear this up. 20:01] hrm, I guess I'll mention a few options to dpeg and hope that he knows what haran ( / other people) are working on. 20:02] Oh, hooray, up to las tnight. 20:11] Oh 20:11] Can someone close the remove slime creatures from swamp bug? 20:11] Ort I'll do it when I'mfinished the playtesting post. 20:13] * dpeg has quit IRC ("Lost terminal") 20:13] can only the person who reported the bug close it, when it's resolved? 20:13] or admins 20:13] Admins can, or the person who reported it. 20:14] I can close my own bugs? I didn't see that option before 20:14] yeah 20:14] We prefer that people do that, so that they confirm it is fixed. 20:14] hit 'my view', and there's a section for "awaiting confirmation of resolution from me" 20:14] "Fixed, closing" -> "Fixed, marked as resolved, please confirmthat it is and close". :) 20:14] yeah exactly, that's the best way to do it 20:14] but there are lots and lots of resolved bugs that have not been closed :( 20:15] yep, none there 20:15] But I've only reported a few things 20:15] the other project i use mantis on, it's a private database though, so all the testers have access to close resolved bugs once we've checked them 20:16] i guess here it does make sense do ask people to check their own bugs once they're resolved 20:16] Yeah, we go through eventually and mark resolved bugs as closed if nobody else has. 20:16] to ask* 20:27] Can we remember to re-wordwrap commit messages by others when pushing them? 20:27] DONE 20:27] HOORAY 20:32] I'm going to update CDO trunk builds as well, even though they just got done recently. 20:35] 03due * r8ee56eafe02c 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/variable/altar.des: Hopefully fix "Triggerable already removed" issues with burning trog altar. 20:44] kilobyte: are you here? 20:49] * TGW is now known as TGWi 20:51] Tree tiles "improved" submission (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=520) by purge 20:57] !tell dpeg Not sure what's already being worked on (by Haran or others), but "Trim down monster descriptions" and "Highlighting important events" ideas. 20:57] Cryp71c: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 20:59] Cryptic: Clearly you should work on adding tons of new Xom stuff :) 20:59] (That is, all the stuff I was thinking about adding, until I looked at the code and had no idea how to procede :P) 21:00] xom stuff isn't that bad. 21:01] Twinge, lol 21:02] due: Nope, it's pretty good, but there's always room for more=) 21:02] Twinge, I wouldn't mind doing that, given I had some guidance to work off of. 21:03] "You open the door. The door slams shut in your face. You hear Xom stifling a chuckle." 21:03] from due or dpeg or whoever knows about the godcode 21:03] Nod. 21:04] Well, dpeg doesn't code. ;) 21:04] And I don't know any of the Xom code, you should probably contact jpeg, she did a lot of that code. 21:09] dpeg wrote the old shoals map generator 21:09] you know, the perfect circles one 21:12] Yeah. 21:12] He *can* code and has done before, but he doesn't do much coding for crawl. 21:35] * Iainuki_ has quit IRC 21:39] * Timbermaw has quit IRC ("later!") 21:43] !lastseen jpeg 21:44] .. isn't it !lastseen? 21:45] !seen, and jpeg doesn't use IRC. 21:45] Sorry due, that person is dead. 21:45] You'd be better to email ): 21:46] ...I could've sworn I saw her in here once... 21:46] *:) 21:46] Nope. 21:46] c-r-d or is her email on he wiki under her user? 21:48] You should be able to reply to one of her comits. 21:48] j-p-e-g@users.sourceforge.net 21:49] yep, found it. Thanks 21:50] so since dpeg doesn' code much, is he a coordinator of sorts for the grand *direction* crawl is going in for .6 and .7? Does anyone fulfil that niche? Obviously it seems as if most of even major implementations just go through the approval of the main devteam 21:50] He is the head designer. 21:50] He has the final say over everything. 21:57] I decided to go with swiftness for alligators. 22:00] when wearing the robe of clouds, the "you are standing in rain." messages can be a little annoying 22:00] because you walk through rain alot when just walking around 22:00] Yeah, they shouldn't stop autotravel. 22:01] they don't, just spam 22:01] * TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 22:01] Ah. 22:02] Difficult, to be honet. 22:02] its not that bad i suppose 22:02] * stabwound has quit IRC 22:03] * stabwound has joined ##crawl-dev 22:03] Heya, a stabwound! 22:05] what, where? 22:06] :) 22:08] Hey, this works pretty well for alligators. 22:09] Oooh, crocodiles are excellent. 22:15] * pointless_ has quit IRC ("ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]") 22:22] * Cryp71c has quit IRC 22:41] * ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 23:03] * eith has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 23:04] sorear: Ping. 23:05] Pog. 23:06] sorear: :) I'm trying to limit how often alligators should cast swiftness on themselves, so they don't spam it; I was looking at storing you.num_turns in mons->number when they cast it, and checking against that in ms_waste_of_time. 23:06] But mon->number is an unsigned int, whereas you.num_turns is long. Obviously this is unsafe. 23:06] So, should I switch to using monster props instead? 23:07] (I was going to use move_energy and speed and the sixfirhy system, but it just looked odd.) 23:08] don't use ms_waste_of_time 23:08] No? 23:08] that's a horribly kludgey hack 23:08] Hm. 23:09] ms_waste_of_time should be for ... wastes of time 23:09] not *making* things impossible 23:09] Hm. 23:09] but telling them that it's impossible beforehand 23:09] Ah. 23:09] you could do both mons_spells(?) and ms_waste_of_time 23:09] but doing it only in the latter is confusing, wrong, and invites bugs 23:09] that said, I *would* just store the turn number 23:10] signed int can hold numbers up to 2 billion on all computers we care about 23:10] ah, so it's a safe conversion? 23:10] so what if alligators act odd in really long games :) 23:10] * due laughs. 23:10] Okay. 23:10] it's not /safe/, but it's safe enough 23:10] !lg * max=turn 23:10] 516492. Stabwound the Farming Skullcrusher (L27 MuSu), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, escaped with the Orb and 111 runes on 2008-03-09, with 9425283 points after 92568259 turns and 128:15:16. 23:10] 92 million turns 23:11] if anyone beats stabwound by a factor of 20, it's OK if alligators stop using swiftness 23:11] * due laughs. 23:11] especially now that we have the OOD clock 23:11] Yeah. 23:11] and if someone decides to wait 2 billion turns in the temple with a mummy just to stop alligators 23:11] well, that's why we arm rax with a clue-bat 23:12] :D 23:12] The mechanism? It *looks* cool. 23:12] I'm also limiting how long they're swift for, so every so often they put on a short burst of speed and eat you. 23:12] (personally I think we should make going over 2 billion turns an insta-death) 23:13] "Outside, the world ends. Sorry, but your quest for the Orb is now rather pointless. You die..." 23:13] (it would simplify the code a lot, because currently the code is terrified of storing turncounts and just uses relative time everywhere) 23:14] if a turn is a standard D&D turn, 2 billion turns equals 680 years 23:14] "You die ... of old age." 23:15] * Kyrris has joined ##crawl-dev 23:17] sorear: Oh, do you know anything about the foe choosing code? I had a quick look through it, as alligators are supposed to be timid, but I understood neither heads nor tails or it. 23:17] very little 23:17] I might pester the snark which is green instead, then. 23:26] * haranp has joined ##crawl-dev 23:26] * ChanServ sets mode: +v haranp 23:26] haranp! Heya. 23:26] Hi 23:26] How do I move my current set of changes to a branch? haven't run commit yet 23:26] Um, git checkout -b , then commit them? 23:27] You might have to stash them first. 23:27] I'll need a tiles person to look over my changes because they seem to have made targetting very very slow on tiles 23:28] :( 23:28] haranp, do you know anything about how monsters choose a foe? 23:28] not much 23:28] Bah. 23:28] Alligators are not supposed to attack unless you get close (say, within 5 squares), or attack them (ranged). 23:31] * Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:31] I'm not much help there 23:31] Yeah, will pester Darshan. 23:31] Mu_! 23:32] Mu_: Feature freeze on Wizllabs for possible early 0.6 release. 23:32] what's that mean 23:32] the log still isn't logging 23:32] There's mild talk of them releasing 0.6 early (in four or so weeks). 23:33] does that mean we can't make new wizlabs 23:33] We can 23:33] Just can't merge them to 0.6 23:33] And we need to finish off what we've got for release! 23:33] Okay, brb. 23:34] * by has joined ##crawl-dev 23:34] * ChanServ sets mode: +v by 23:34] hello 23:35] hi by 23:35] * by has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 23:38] due i started makin a cekugob but i still sometimes get disconnected features even when i do teh validate thing 23:39] * by has joined ##crawl-dev 23:39] * ChanServ sets mode: +v by 23:39] probably because i'm using subvaults (??) 23:41] * ogaz_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:41] * ogaz has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 23:45] * ogaz_ has left ##crawl-dev 23:46] * ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 23:51] greensnark: any news on ranged attacks + submerged creatures? should I push the beam.cc changes? 23:52] how do I pull in master changes on a branch? git pull [what] ? 23:52] haranp: hi; dpeg said you were working on the targetting prompts: feel free to change message.cc as required 23:52] git merge master 23:52] by: message.cc is unchanged 23:52] or 23:52] git rebase master 23:52] Mu_: Hm, should be able to fix that up 23:53] I'm trying to decide. Should alligators be speed 9 or 10 by default? 23:53] 9 makes them quite slow and easy to escape. 23:53] Current branch direction-rewrite is up to date. 23:53] ok; it seemed there might be some need to overwrite parts of an old prompt 23:53] but I'm only synced up to decb6b25c768d8e4ea0a2af37e5b4c699d86b036 23:53] Is master up to date? 23:54] no 23:54] I guess "git merge origin/master" might work better 23:54] aha 23:54] I'd assumed that local branch master was updated 23:55] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Crocnest.JPG Soon, soon! Session Time: Sat Jan 23 00:00:00 2010 00:02] ok, now how do I push? 00:02] 03by * re64a17d5a264 10/crawl-ref/source/spells2.cc: Don't abort vampiric draining freely if no monster present. 00:02] 03by * rf62438ab20fe 10/crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Rename _mons_submerged_in_water to _mons_exposed_in_water. 00:02] 03by * rc4f5129ce7d5 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Don't allow beams to affect submerged monsters. 00:02] 03by * r667e710dbaad 10/crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Never target submerged monsters. 00:02] 03by * rbe1ab9342e8b 10/crawl-ref/source/spells2.cc: Disallow Freeze and Vampiric Draining from affecting submerged monsters. 00:03] Niiice. 00:03] :( 00:07] ogaz: ? 00:07] when doing "git push" it says "everything up-to-date" 00:08] git push origin direction-rewrite:direction-rewrite 00:08] this will push branch direction-rewrite? 00:08] though there must be an easier way to do that? 00:08] by: I dislike fish, so I always go out of my way to kill them 00:08] This change is probably a good thing, though 00:09] fatal: Invalid revision range 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000..a537b5aa969f5f3a8fcead227a8553333813ceba 00:09] that's just the hook scripts failing 00:09] so was it pushed? the mail seems suspicously short 00:10] probably; the hooks don't handle branching well 00:10] Yes. 00:10] yay :) 00:11] haranp: Yep, worked, I just checked it out. 00:11] ok, now the tiles people need to tell me why it's so bloody slow 00:11] :) 00:12] fatal: Invalid revision range 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000..a537b5aa969f5f3a8fcead227a8553333813ceba 00:12] sorry, mispaste 00:12] ok, off for a hike 00:12] * haranp has quit IRC ("leaving") 00:13] See ya :) 00:13] ogaz: Fish shouldn't submerge much at all anymore from waht I've heard 00:13] Twinge: They will. 00:13] I haven't done any changes to the submerge code yet. 00:14] Ah. 00:14] soonish, then 00:16] They will submerge, just not to flee. 00:16] Will this also stop people from magic darting trapdoor spiders to death? 00:16] Yes. 00:19] Will this have a very large impact on swamp? 00:19] Yes. 00:19] The change I made last night will have a bigger impact. 00:19] No water attack bonus. 00:20] Hm. 00:20] More surprises, less incentive to futz with every single enemy, less risk, more reward for performance. 00:21] Including for swamp worms? 00:21] Should bring the annoyance level way down, then. 00:21] ogaz: Anything. 00:22] Cool. I like fish being less of a headache. 00:26] Bah, this change means updating minor version. 00:28] Are swamp worms still a threat after the change? 00:29] !tell haranp New direction() in tiles isn't slow for me at all -- are you just experiencing general tiles slowness? 00:29] by: OK, I'll let haranp know. 00:30] !tell haranp Also hurray for direction() cleanup. 00:30] by: OK, I'll let haranp know. 00:35] Yees, hurray! 00:56] Moin! 00:59] Bah 00:59] How do I add a new cloud type and keep it sane? 00:59] Incremenet CLOUD_X by one if it's below the new type? 01:00] morning Napkin 01:00] Good morning, Rob :) 01:01] due: don't understand the question 01:01] by: I'm adding a new cloud type (ink, for kraken), but as it's opaque, it has to go into the middle of the cloud enum. 01:02] by: If I bump minor version, and then check against that for all loaded clouds that havebeen shifted, and increment them by one, it should be safe, yes? 01:02] due: don't bother with minor versions for this 01:02] Bump major instead? 01:02] due: loading an old game will have the wrong cloud types. That's OK, because clouds are temporary 01:02] Ah, true. 01:08] erm... is this really the proper tile? http://crawl.develz.org/info/?q=orb%20guardian 01:10] Yes. 01:10] It's a jelly-baba, surprise! 01:10] * due munches. 01:10] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelly_baby <-- Do you get them outside of the UK/australia? 01:11] * ChanServ sets mode: +o due 01:11] * due sets mode: -o due 01:11] Wrong hannel. 01:13] * MarvinPA-2 has joined ##crawl-dev 01:14] Heya MarvinPA-2. 01:15] hallo 01:15] * Vandal has quit IRC (Client Quit) 01:15] * MarvinPA has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 01:16] * MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA 01:23] * Jampy has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:44] * henryci has joined ##crawl-dev 01:47] Hm. 01:48] We should probably dump jellyfish and make them interesting. 01:52] due: jellyfish could be made a shoals-only thing that gets washed up /w the tide 01:52] in large numbers 01:53] Oooh, excellent idea 01:53] but I was thinking splitting to two new jellies and dumping the current one; 01:53] blue bottle and irukandji. 01:53] blue bottles levitate above the water 01:53] and irukandji are absolutely tiny and should have a curare sting. 01:55] I think we should just do that. 01:57] disagree with curare, they're too cool IRL to have such a boring in-game effect 01:57] Then why do you think? 01:58] i think that we shouldn't add more water monsters unless they're really interesting, or can come out of the water in some way 01:58] I'm saying get rid of the current boring jellyfish and make them interesting. 01:58] i don't think that what would pass for an interesting land monster is enough on water monsters, tbh 01:59] it just seems like a change for the same of a change - and this is coming from me, i *like* change 01:59] A jellyfish that can fly is boring? 02:00] i'm certainly not going to complain if you make jellies a bit more interesting but i don't think it will actually result in them being... interesting 02:00] They just have to provide an iteresting threat. 02:00] Rather than "eh, it's a jellyfish". 02:00] oh, i'm in favor of flying jellyfish - i thought you meant like, at the surface of the water 02:00] (as in, can't submerge) 02:02] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Man_o%27_War#Structure 02:02] they have to submerge to live. 02:02] The portuguese man o' war is seriously my favourite jellyfish. It's just really cool. 02:02] Irukandji are great, sure. 02:03] i'm partial to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaucus_atlanticus :) 02:04] That's pretty cool, too. 02:06] How is number of chunks determined btw? If it can be customized, Jellyfish (whatever type they turn into) shouldn't make so many chunks 02:06] They're probalbly "giant jellyfish" at the minute. 02:06] ZAngband has the portuguese man o' war 02:06] Twinge: it's a function of corpse mass 02:06] Ooh, does it? 02:07] Yes, they have an instadeath melee attack 02:07] Not fun at all 02:07] Ah 02:08] jellyfish are currently listed at twice the weight of humans 02:08] due: what about temporarily just removing jellyfish, adding flying jellyfish, leaving the design space open for when water monsters are revisited 02:08] That... needs to fix. 02:08] *needs to be fixed. 02:08] so many monster weights need to be fixed, anyways 02:08] and sizes 02:08] I should probably push alligators, but I'm loath to do so at the minute... 02:08] as heavy as hippogriffs 02:08] it's not really worth worrying about 02:08] That's a big jellyfish. 02:09] Should I push alligators even withoout the attitude tweaks/ 02:09] greensnark, greensnark, greensnark! 02:12] Hm. 02:15] I guess I could look at mob weights a bit at some point maybe 02:18] i'd look through it but it's really not a top priority so 02:20] Eronarn: It's plain text and something that I can both read and edit without any external help -- there's a fairly limited number of things that fall into that category, hehe 02:22] Twinge: did i tell you about the approach i want to do for doing it? 02:25] Hm. 02:30] Hm, okay, ink works. 02:31] Well, ink cloud works. 02:32] but what about magic markers 02:34] Oh hey, it works really well. 02:35] Anyone want to see? 02:37] Eronarn: No. 02:38] * due fetches 2cc of mouse blood, dribbly candles, and some sticks. 02:39] * Ero_ has joined ##crawl-dev 02:39] -> [Eronarn] PING 02:40] * syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:40] * Jampy has joined ##crawl-dev 02:41] hey napkin you there? 02:41] Hi Jampy - what's up? 02:46] Oh, d'oh - ##crawl is still +R 02:46] elly: Can you drop +R in ##crawl? 02:48] Okay 02:48] I'm termcasting 02:48] Bah. 02:48] <3 Cute 02:49] Purple plush kraken of lov 02:49] Yes. <3 02:49] What do we think of the ink? 02:49] The problem is that it won't leave the tentacles, who also won't run away. 02:49] So it's kinda annoying. 02:50] tentacular embrace is a two-way street... 02:50] Now, it looks better on # than on no glyph. 02:50] Does anyone want to see it on no glyph? (which is what David asked for) 02:50] no glyph? 02:50] The cloud 02:50] the rest of the map is shifted to the left to fill the hole in reality? 02:51] :) 02:51] Precisely. 02:51] NO. 02:51] that totally be should be a lugonu ability 02:51] :P 02:51] No to the glyphless ink? 02:51] i like no glyph 02:51] Holey reality 02:51] Oh 02:52] I like no glyph, but it's kinda difficult to see what's ink and what's not. 02:52] (Ink and out-of-LOS). 02:52] I'm for # 02:52] Okay, let's go wit #. 02:52] Okay... 02:52] Fleeing kraken's tentacles should also flee. 02:55] Okay, back in a bit. 03:05] * due back. 03:06] wb! 03:06] Hiya Napkin! 03:06] can tentacles be targetted now? 03:06] I'm not sure 03:06] No :( 03:06] it was a bit cumbersome to have to press Z and target them manually 03:12] * ogaz has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 03:16] I love the effect. 03:16] But the tentacles need to flee as wlel. 03:17] * Jampy has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:23] Does mag_immune mean a monster will never flee? 03:24] no 03:24] Hm. 03:24] Eh, back in a bit. 03:30] * dexap is now known as paxed 03:32] Eronarn: What was your weight approach? 03:35] * due attempts the rite of greensnark summoning once more. 03:39] Yo 03:39] "So you thought you could elude me. Fool!" 03:40] hooray, greensnark! 03:40] greensnark: If I push alligators, can you make them timid? 03:41] As in, they only acquire a foe if attacked by that foe, or if approached more than 4 or so squares? 03:41] I can't get to it right now, but yes, push the change and I'll do it eventually 03:41] Awesome. 03:41] I've no idea how to do it. 03:42] But they're awesome! I went with swiftness. 03:42] Neither do I, but I can poke around :P 03:42] You have a higher chance of success. 03:43] I managed to get it stuck in an endless loop. 03:43] morning 03:43] Heya cbus. 03:45] Crazy Swedes waking up at noon 03:45] :P 03:48] Okay, kraken + ink? awesome. 03:48] greensnark: Want me to start termcasting again so you can see it? 03:48] due: Not right now :/ 03:48] Okay. 03:49] It doesn't always work, but when it does, it's awesome. 03:50] Apparently someone saw the flame cloud on water effect and got terrified by the amount of steam :P 03:50] Hehe, yeah. 03:51] greensnark, nah, was up at 10 03:51] and a bit at 7 03:51] due: can I see? 03:51] st_: Sure 03:52] st_: See it? 03:52] nice 03:57] Okay, I think that's enough futzing. 04:00] Miaow 04:00] Call ees done 04:01] Hooray 04:01] I am just checking something on alligators, then I'll push 04:02] Excellent, patrolling alligators work. 04:03] Puuuush 04:05] 03due * rd619ec97ac10 10/crawl-ref/source/ (18 files in 8 dirs): Add (rename) crocodiles and alligators. 04:05] 03due * r9ea65f561297 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (branches/volcano.des portals/volcano.des): Move volcano.des to the right folder, spellcheck. 04:05] 03due * rbc4a1481e323 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mgen_enum.h mon-pick.cc mon-place.cc): Let alligators spawn regularly in Swamp. 04:05] 03due * r21cb4595aaee 10/crawl-ref/source/ (12 files): Kraken no longer submerge while fleeing, but squirt clouds of ink. 04:05] 03due * r7d59d745cd33 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Alligators now generate as patrolling, unless they're in a band. 04:05] Rock band alligators 04:05] What instrument would they play? 04:05] The trombone? 04:06] Trombone! 04:06] can someone -R ##crawl 04:06] due has ops there, right? 04:07] Nope 04:07] Napkin: Can you set mode -R in ##crawl? 04:09] Saturday morning, nto a good time for a Napking sighting :P 04:09] He was around... two hours ago. 04:09] His morning starts at approx 5pm his local time on Saturdays, I thought :P 04:09] True 04:15] * Ero_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:20] huh`? 04:20] :-P 04:21] greensnark: Will you be able to do a couple of paragraphs of write up onn the OOD changes? 04:21] I decided that "Why, isn't that ood?" is the perfect post title. 04:21] Nooooooo 04:21] :( 04:21] I don't understand them! I just hand-waved through them on the play-testing post. 04:21] I can put it on the wiki, but I want players to be pleasantly surprised :P 04:22] Fiine. 04:22] It's pretty simple though 04:22] The game wants a monster for depth X 04:23] It sometimes applies a moderate fuzz to the level X, up to +7 04:23] And it occasionally decides it wants a super OOD, and adds up to +27 to (X+fuzz) 04:23] !lg * kaux=~of flame of flame 04:23] 5. nmf the Magician (L6 DEEE), worshipper of Vehumet, shot by a centaur (arrow of flame of flame) on D:5 on 2010-01-21, with 748 points after 6554 turns and 0:20:53. 04:23] * due trying to fix this now. 04:23] And then it picks a monster appropriate for the depth (X+fuzz+superoodfuzz) 04:24] Ahh. 04:24] I think I knew that! 04:24] The OOD changes make it more likely that the moderate and super OOD increments will be applied with time spent after 3k turns 04:25] * hashc has quit IRC ("Ex-Chat") 04:25] Spent on level, i.e. 04:25] Okay. 04:25] And in the other direction, they make monster respawns less likely as time goes on 04:25] But more and more likely as the number approaches 9k turns? 04:25] So, spawns are less likely, but those that do spawn are more likely to be ood? 04:25] So you will get fewer higher quality respawns, but the supply will dry up completely after 15k turns 04:25] Yes 04:25] Awesome. 04:27] Aw, nobody wanted to watch my furious grepping? 04:27] Gah. 04:28] I switched over to csplat :( 04:28] !lg * splat Shoal 04:28] 1. trucutru the Eclecticist (L22 HuWz), worshipper of Vehumet, blasted by a merfolk aquamancer (great wave of water) on Shoal:5 on 2010-01-05, with 250081 points after 70341 turns and 8:24:24. 04:28] That's okay. 04:28] <3 04:29] Adeon fetched the Shoal rune in a remarkably hilarious raid yesterday 04:29] why is that the only Shoal "Splat" 04:29] splat = high level 04:29] !lg * Shoal max=xl 04:29] 76. trucutru the Eclecticist (L22 HuWz), worshipper of Vehumet, blasted by a merfolk aquamancer (great wave of water) on Shoal:5 on 2010-01-05, with 250081 points after 70341 turns and 8:24:24. 04:29] !lg * Shoal max=xl -2 04:29] 75. LordSloth the Swashbuckler (L19 MfSt), worshipper of Okawaru, mangled by a merfolk (a +0,+0 trident) (led by a merfolk javelineer) on Shoal:2 on 2010-01-20, with 208850 points after 62056 turns and 6:39:38. 04:30] High level players don't die in SHoals :P 04:30] * henryci has quit IRC (Client Quit) 04:30] !lg * Splat Swamp 04:30] 53. Solvent the Carver (L15 HuAE), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, blasted by Norris (divine providence) on Swamp:5 on 2010-01-16, with 61964 points after 39124 turns and 3:08:58. 04:30] splat exemptions for fun uniques there 04:30] !lg * Donald 04:30] Malformed argument: Donald 04:30] It relaxes the xl rules for Norris and Xtahua and stuff :P 04:30] !lg * killer=Donald 04:30] 11. saren the Carver (L10 HEPa), worshipper of The Shining One, demolished by Donald (a +3,+5 long sword of flaming) on Orc:1 on 2010-01-22, with 5319 points after 10777 turns and 0:57:36. 04:30] Still oly one. 04:30] Ohh due 04:31] Maybe he needs another buff? 04:31] Adeon met Donald and confused him 04:31] Oooh 04:31] Hehe. 04:31] And Donald quacked <3 <3 <3 04:31] I KNOW 04:31] I got that one in via the "wall of text" feat. 04:31] Useful feat :P 04:32] syllogism: You should look at that Adeon rune :P 04:32] Push two thousand lines of Donald text, include a few questionnable ones... 04:32] the what 04:32] !lm Adeon rune=barnacled -tv:<2:>2 04:32] * Zaba_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:32] * ChanServ sets mode: +v Zaba_ 04:32] Something about that ttyrec does massacre FooTV though 04:32] 1. AdeonTwo, XL24 OgSt, T:99051 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 04:33] ARGH THIS DRIVES ME CRAZY 04:33] * greensnark hands due a snow-cone. 04:33] what you doin 04:33] Mu_: The validate thing doesn't work for subvaults yet, sorry 04:33] * Zaba has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 04:34] ;,( 04:34] And my subvault fu was insufficiently strong to fix it last night 04:34] I should look at it again 04:34] i would be grateful 04:34] greensnark: It's just the kaux line for HEnzell that's borked, and I have o idea how to work it. 04:34] Looking at the subvault code, one feels a deep, prayerful respect for Enne who wrote it :) 04:34] Oh, good, I thought that might've been the case. 04:34] Enne is absolutely amazing. 04:34] Where does it pick the kaux line from? 04:34] Adeon game is on 04:34] FooTV <3 04:35] greensnark: Do you know where the kaux line is fetched frm? I can't work it out. 04:35] nice 04:35] ... omfg 04:35] That's... 04:37] !killsby sea snake 04:37] No games for * (ckiller=sea snake). 04:37] ... wow. 04:37] Really wow. 04:37] He should have stayed and fought the kraken :P 04:38] due: kaux line for what? 04:39] !lg * kaux=~of flame of flame 04:39] 5. nmf the Magician (L6 DEEE), worshipper of Vehumet, shot by a centaur (arrow of flame of flame) on D:5 on 2010-01-21, with 748 points after 6554 turns and 0:20:53. 04:39] I believe that's the beam's name or such 04:39] any idea why crawl hangs whenever i bring up the shift-x map? :p 04:39] greensnark: The actual death line is correct, but the kaux line that Henzell uses it somehow stacking another "of flame" on. 04:39] Mu_: Someone else reported an X bug 04:39] Is it hanging reliably? That save would be handy 04:40] hmm, nice 04:40] i just pulled and recompiled and it's every character i make as soon as i bring up the map 04:40] due: Look at beam.cc bolt::internal_ouch 04:40] vampiric GSC 04:40] Mu_: OS, terminal size? 04:40] too bad its the same issue as distortion based blunt weapons (that you have to pay a steep price EVERY time you have to switch to butcher 04:40] vista, default 04:40] (one issue with the new vampiric behaviour) 04:40] I think syllogism also had this crash 04:41] Might be a messagewindow interaction with Windows libs 04:41] syllogism: Did you file a bug for the X crash? 04:41] greensnark: Ah, interesting, thanks. 04:42] What's the DGL build flag again? I cannot remember. 04:42] greensnark, was that considered in the vampiric brand change? 04:42] USE_DGAMELAUNCH? 04:43] Oh, it is, cool. 04:43] cbus: I didn't realise there was a change? 04:43] greensnark, there was, you pay a price on wield now 04:43] Oh, I wasn't following that discussion 04:44] greensnark: No 04:44] That was a while back. 04:44] It sticks to your hand! b - the cursed giant spiked club of Ragnarok (weapon) {god gift, vamp} 04:44] so trog gives cursed weapons? 04:45] you don't really need a save, it hangs every game 04:45] every time 04:45] Hang or crash? 04:46] crash 04:46] Hey, cool. 04:46] Let me open up the VM of doom 04:46] Not the VM!!! Oh god, no! 04:46] One thing I have to say for Win 7, it's pretty 04:46] Although I guess Vista was too, but I didn't look at Vista much 04:46] should I post a BR or FR about the vamp change and blunt weapons? 04:47] greensnark, now you have to be satiated to use a vamp weapon and you get a cost on wield and nothing else 04:47] Oh 04:47] cbus: it would be an FR, there is no bug. 04:47] due, well the bug is that vamp weapons are useless on blunt weapons 04:47] vamp brand 04:47] its a game design bug :) 04:48] No 04:48] It is a feature request. 04:48] There is no bug. 04:48] Do vampiric weapons still feed the player? 04:48] :p 04:48] greensnark: Yes. 04:48] Sounds a little too strong for them to feed and heal the player and cost no nutrition 04:48] On edged weapons 04:48] The hit is like 4000 nutrition. 04:49] Yes, but one time 04:49] You don't ever have to unwield an edged vamp weapon 04:49] Maybe I'm wrong about satiation the. 04:49] And vampiric weapons are very very strong 04:49] *the. 04:49] dpeg and sorear had the originaal idea ad hammered it out. 04:49] It seemed relatively solid. 04:50] Meh, I seem to have killed my vmware network services :P 04:50] :D 04:52] I accidentally powered off my switch yesterday, and vmware's nat service apparently will respond to dhcp requests on 192.168.1.0/24 04:53] And I was trying to connect to my DSL modem's web interface to see wtf was going on, and instead I was connecting back to my desktop's web server 04:53] Much confusion and hilarity later I rage-killed vmware' 04:53] :P 04:55] Sounds like fun. 04:56] It's all these cheap power strips 04:56] Just moving the table shook the switch's power plug loose :P 04:56] Bah. 04:57] oops: 04:57] Napking! 04:57] -You climb downwards. 04:57] mlua error: /crawl-svn-577f5d3/dat/clua/lm_trig.lua:664: Too many vault items for item_pickup 04:57] You sense a powerful magical force warping space. 04:57] when I entered Zot5 04:57] Hm 04:57] Hi greensnark :D 04:57] Bah. 04:57] I've seen that happen before. 04:57] That's when there's mmoer than one item on the rune. 04:57] Or orb. 04:57] Napkin: Sounds like picking up the orb may not re-enable teleport control on Zot:5 :P 04:57] Which really makes no sense. 04:57] and no, it won't. 04:57] oh? 04:58] Yes, exercise caution 04:58] Your game just got harder :) 04:58] should i recreate the level? 04:58] I need to fix those, shouldn't be auto. 04:58] ooohh.. nooooes! 04:58] Napkin: Might be a good idea. 04:58] No, don't 04:58] seriously? 04:58] No? 04:58] The zot map will get marked as used, so your new Zot:5 won't have an orbv 04:58] Nice. 04:58] oh - why so? 04:58] They're not allow_dup. 04:58] The game cannot generate the zot map twice 04:59] isn't that contra-productive? 04:59] what if something happens.. like Eifel had no Snake:5 04:59] Wh am I not getting a highscore file? 04:59] is USE_DGAELAUNCH=y not enough/ 05:00] In Eifel's case regenerating Snake:5 would have worked, becaus Snake:5 has an alternative 05:00] The default for all maps is not to be reused, mainly so that random maps don't appear multiple times 05:01] oh, ok 05:01] Bah 05:01] so.. just play, right? 05:01] None of my deaths is making a hiscores file. :/ 05:01] due: debug build? 05:01] Napkin, what is the option you need fo rthat? 05:01] Yes 05:01] hiscore file usually always gets created 05:01] You have to enable a compile flag to score wizard characters 05:01] make debug -j2 USE_DGAMELAUNCH=y 05:01] Hm 05:01] no extra option 05:01] It worked earlier 05:02] When I was testing ghost kills 05:02] wish me luck! 05:02] Or... that wasn't deaths. 05:02] Build with make debug EXTRA_FLAGS='-g -DSCORE_WIZARD_CHARACTERS' -j2 USE_DGAMELAUNCH=y 05:02] Napkin: You have Haste, you really have to screw up on a giant scale to die :) 05:02] greensnark: <3 05:02] When in doubt, Haste :) 05:02] screwing up is my second name :D 05:03] * dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:03] * ChanServ sets mode: +o dpeg 05:03] dpeg! 05:03] I am not really here! 05:03] dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 05:03] dpeg: kraken and ink clouds are in! they look and work really well! 05:03] I'm not really here either. 05:03] due: :) 05:03] Yay ink 05:03] Moin david! 05:04] Hi everyone! 05:04] * greensnark proposes that kraken write rude messages with ink on the beach 05:04] greensnark: +1. 05:04] Do people think that the submerging proposal is good enough for 0.6? 05:04] didn't look at the wiki 05:04] "Your momma was a squid, and your father stank of fish." 05:05] greensnark: and here I thought the kraken would write sequels to Euclid's elements. 05:05] dpeg: They could do that too 05:05] kraken mathematician 05:06] Alligators are also in, as are the kraken changes. 05:06] ^^ new monster 05:06] I suppose they'd use octal 05:06] They have eight tentacles, right? 05:06] greensnark: is there any other base? 05:06] octal for life 05:06] octopode octal mathamancer 05:07] All your base are belong to 8. 05:07] it is a shame that humans developed ten fingers 05:07] Hey, I happen to like my little fingers 05:07] should scrap that evolutional experiment and start afresh 05:07] greensnark: 12 would be much better 05:07] Oh, granted 05:07] better primes 05:07] I thought you were suggesting base 8 05:08] no, I think 2*2*3 is very good 05:08] Not 3*3*3? 05:08] due: no, not really :) 05:08] dpeg can you make ##crawl -R? :o 05:09] life != Crawl, sadly 05:09] cc1plus.exe: out of memory allocating 2503859700 bytes 05:09] I think MinGW is trying to communicate here :P 05:09] Mu_: don't think so, wouldn't also know how 05:09] More prosaically, I think a compile check is failing :P 05:09] Napkin can do -R on ##crawl 05:09] greensnark: is that a program that adds one to a number? 05:09] Napkin: Can you -R ##crawl 05:09] Napkin? 05:09] sure 05:10] Rax is also around. 05:12] Hi Rax :) 05:13] Hello! 05:13] Sorry I did not get to the thing you wanted me to do, the last week has been maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadness 05:13] Keskitalo! 05:13] hehe, no problem at all :) 05:14] Hm, I think "of flame of flame" is fixed. 05:14] !lg * kaux=o\ flame of flame 05:14] No games for * (kaux=o\ flame of flame). 05:14] !lg * kaux=of flame of flame 05:14] No games for * (kaux=of flame of flame). 05:14] Meh, this MinGW compile failure has me snorgled 05:14] I am rsyncing learndb with my account for now - but I'd like other's that help building cdo versions and windows builds to do so too, one day - no hurry :) 05:14] ^^ rax 05:15] *nods* 05:15] greensnark: Snorgled = you are about to go berserk? 05:15] enjoy your weekend then, rax :) sounds like you earned it :D 05:16] !lg * vmsg=~of flame of flame 05:16] 5. nmf the Magician (L6 DEEE), worshipper of Vehumet, shot by a centaur (arrow of flame of flame) on D:5 on 2010-01-21, with 748 points after 6554 turns and 0:20:53. 05:16] Hm. That makes no sense. 05:16] Napkin: Well, I don't know about "earned," but "successfully crawled out of the wreckage of the week to enter" at least. :) 05:16] Napkin: Can I get that line out of the scorefile on CDO? 05:17] hehe 05:17] due: Hey! 05:17] I hereby announce a general "hey!" 05:17] Keskitalo: Crocoiles! I tried to recoloure the giant lizard tile, but it was a failure. 05:17] lol, due 05:17] Hey too! 05:17] due: I have a vivid mental image of trying to apply spray paint. 05:18] Keskitalo: I lost a foot in the struggle. :/ 05:18] Aw. 05:18] Napkin: As in, is there a sane way for me to get to the sore file on CDO so I can grep it to work out what the incorrect line is? 05:18] Or if tthere even is an incorrect line? 05:18] Oh, hang on. 05:19] Ahah! 05:20] ... Argh, so I never fixed the root properl. 05:21] of course, due 05:22] cd ~dgl/.. # there are the crawl versions and all score files readable for user crawl 05:22] There's a convenient http URL as well 05:23] Although I can never recall what it is offhand 05:23] oh, right - you could also go ~crawl/website/ 05:23] there are links to all score files 05:24] Napkin: Has the Windows build run successfully recently? 05:24] MinGW on Windows is dying with a complete fubar error message on spl-cast.cc :P 05:24] oh? yes, I think Eino built them yesterday 05:24] Hm 05:24] lemme check 05:24] I think Mu_ also built today 05:24] can one of you crazy tiles people have a look in Haran's branch? 05:25] So it's weird 05:25] dpeg said the 'T' word 05:25] \o/ 05:25] -- Press RETURN to compile (0.6.0-a1-2629-g7d59d74) -- 05:25] greensnark: I lost a sister to the tiles. 05:26] I tell, sprites are a hard drug. There is no "I'll just have a look, I could quit every time". 05:26] :P 05:29] dpeg: :/ 05:29] Poor Johanna. 05:29] * Napkin whispers: greensnark admitted to looking at the tiles on the knowledge bots website a lot! :> 05:30] Learn thy enemy :P 05:30] haha 05:30] That's aaaalll it was :P 05:30] CXX spl-book.o 05:30] CXX spl-cast.o 05:30] CXX spl-mis.o 05:30] Mwahaha. 05:30] I do not have a secret cache of uniques that I look at 05:30] I specifically do not have a pinup of the Tiamat tile 05:30] So get your minds out of the gutter, people 05:30] worked fine here, greensnark 05:31] Napkin: Yeah, I think I have to upgrade my Mingw 05:31] Napkin: Thanks for checking 05:31] I'm using now i686-pc-mingw32-gcc (GCC) 4.4.0 05:32] if that helps? no problem, greensnark 05:36] due: I added the croc to the 0.6 tiles agenda (to Further improvement welcome) 05:37] Keskitalo: Thanks! 05:40] oh, another error 05:41] when I try to walk to the waypoint I created about 10 spaces away: mlua error: /crawl-svn-577f5d3/dat/clua/lm_trig.lua:189: Triggerable already activating 05:41] Sigh. 05:41] I'm sick of that hated error. 05:41] Are there any fog machines on the level? 05:41] i don't know - Zot5 - haven't seen any yet 05:42] Ah. 05:42] That'll be the Orb pickup. 05:42] ^G < works, ^G doesn't 05:42] Probably conected to that error. 06:02] Er 06:02] I've got arrows stuck in trees 06:02] is this normal 06:06] syllogism: This spreadsheet is <3 06:07] The new EV formula seems rather generous with EV in heavy armour 06:08] ... ARGH 06:09] So, not only did the setup_missile_beam auto-poison ammo, so does the mon-act code. 06:09] Yay! Not? 06:09] :P 06:09] And it doesn't ever use ammo_name, which is why we're still getting of flame of flame. 06:11] heh - there was a "remove curse" scroll on my orb! 06:11] That's infuriating. 06:11] !won Napkin 06:11] * Napkin whistles innocently * 06:11] Napkin has not won in 337 games. 06:11] Ohh 06:11] We have a first winner on our hands 06:11] _my_ orb in a bit ;) 06:11] Ohhhh, oh. 06:11] * greensnark tunes in. 06:11] This I have to see :) 06:11] @whereis nappkin 06:11] No where information for nappkin (). 06:12] Run run run 06:12] Run! Get out! Go! 06:14] Napkin: Rest on an up stair to regain MP. 06:15] Run! 06:17] greensnark: comment on the AC wiki page, for what it's worth 06:18] dpeg: Napkin is winnig! 06:18] and yes, syllogism spreadsheet is awesome 06:18] due: bug! 06:18] @whereis napkin 06:18] No where information for napkin (). 06:18] !whereis napkin 06:18] @whereis Napkin 06:18] Napkin the Annihilator (L27 HEFE), a worshipper of Vehumet, is currently on D:8 after 210391 turns. 06:18] 337. Napkin the Firebug (L4 HEFE), slain by MarvinPA's ghost on D:3 on 2010-01-08, with 206 points after 5868 turns and 0:25:01. 06:18] HEFE, very nice 06:18] also HEFE = YEAST 06:18] (or yeest?) 06:19] \o/ 06:20] dpeg: It's not too bad, actually 06:20] It sounds like it'll make medium armours actually worth considering 06:20] Can we implement the new numbers or are we waiting to fix something? 06:21] I have to sleep. 06:21] I'm sick of this bloody "of flame of flame" bug. 06:21] greensnark: we can implement them 06:21] dpeg: Yay 06:21] the only criticism left was about GDR 06:21] due: I thought you fixed them? 06:21] dpeg: You mean which formula to use, or criticism as in: it's still too bad/good 06:21] but syllogism emphasised that it's good enough -- don't use the NewRR formula, it is way too complicated 06:21] greensnark: I did but then I didn't. the Issue is combining flaming arrows with a flaming bow. You currently get "glowing xyz of flame". 06:21] simple == good 06:21] It should just be " of flame". 06:22] <--- simple person 06:22] due: the proper solution is to have no more branded launchers 06:22] erm, brands of ammo and launchers should be disjoint 06:22] They're supposed to be. 06:23] The effect is purely textual. 06:23] And I can't track down to where the actual issue is. 06:23] due: I mean that launchers of flame shouldn't exist at all :) 06:23] Hm. 06:24] No, I think that's too extreme. 06:24] but we didn't discuss launcher brands properly 06:24] So nobody's going to shoot me for putting in the new AC numbers, right? 06:24] no 06:24] Do the new numbers apply to monsters as well :P 06:24] instead, throngs of Crawl groupies will come to your house 06:24] re 06:24] greensnark: I thought so! 06:24] Ooh, that's going to make Dispater Mr. Invincible 06:25] dpeg, the new vamp brand doesn't work that good on blunt (need to butcher with other weapons) 06:25] greensnark: well, individual tweaks may be needed later on :) 06:25] cbus: this is true 06:25] dpeg, might be a strong word, but its useless for blunt :) 06:25] Just kidding, monster stuff shouldn't be changed without careful review 06:25] (same issue as distortion on blunt) 06:26] In particular monsters will need some way to assign skills 06:26] (unless you are a mummy) :) 06:26] 03dolorous * r4afa74bf0698 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-grow.cc: Make snapping turtles level up into alligator snapping turtles, and make 06:26] And answering questions like "What is Dispater's base AC and armour skill?" will be tricky until that's been thought out 06:26] Noooo! They're different animals :P 06:27] Crawl evolution: kill stuff to morph species :) 06:27] The ogre head splits into two heads 06:27] :D 06:27] The ogre becomes a two-headed ogre. 06:29] greensnark: gotta tell dolorous 06:29] due: awesome blog entry 06:29] a lot of work, it shows 06:29] :) 06:29] It took me most of the day. 06:30] dpeg: We were talking about how many "giant" monsters theere are. 06:30] There's a percentage that could easily just have the "giant" token removed and remain interesting. 06:31] giant iguana --> iguana, at least. 06:31] giant bat -> bat 06:31] :D 06:31] There's 25 monsters that have "giant" in them, though some are actually hill giants/etc. 06:31] cbus: Agree. 06:31] giant cockroach (ok maybe a normal cockroach might not be that frightening, but still{) 06:32] We can say in the description that they're huge. 06:32] I think the deal is that these are small and pretty harmless monsters in real life 06:32] yes 06:32] "giant orc" would be irrelevant and inappropriate, but "giant ant" sounds reasonable to me 06:32] Yeah, I got that. 06:33] I'd find a plain "ant" amusing :P 06:33] "huge ant" 06:33] "humongous ant" 06:33] :D 06:33] I just feel the "giant" is overused. 06:33] "gargantuan cockroach". 06:33] Oh, yes, we can use different adjectives 06:33] I thought the proposal was to remove the adjectives altogether 06:33] No, no. 06:33] There are some cases where removal would work fine. 06:33] Others where it's odd. 06:34] "high-BMI lizard" 06:34] weight challenged lizard 06:34] unusual size 06:34] Oh yes 06:34] rodents of unusual size 06:34] But I don't think they exist 06:35] http://www.colombiahotels.travel/wiki/images/d/d6/Giant_iguana.jpg 06:35] Iguanas are pretty big. 06:35] Well, they can be. 06:35] ... O_O http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/midorcas/animalphysiology/websites/2008/Belcher/marine-iguana.jpg 06:35] swamp drake 06:35] Can we have walruses? :P 06:36] * greensnark <3 walruses 06:36] btw 06:36] GSC are pretty sweet 06:36] http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Noaa-walrus30.jpg 06:36] Walri can come later. 06:37] Okay, gonna sleep. 06:37] nights Jude! 06:37] Those teeth are soo cute 06:37] Could have them in the ice cave 06:37] greensnark: <3 Thanks for looking into the alligator foe thing. 06:37] due: sorry, once again: the anti-submerging ideas are okay? 06:37] dpeg: Yes, I am for them all. 06:37] cool 06:38] should get those into 0.6 06:38] dpeg: rob already started coding up some of them 06:38] yay 06:38] Hurray 06:38] dpeg: No atacking submerged creatures 06:38] urgent: the shark bits :P 06:38] get the tutrtles from diskworld 06:38] :D 06:38] So can we finish AC by tomorrow and release 0.6 by Valentine's day? :P 06:38] yes 06:38] only need to wait for henryci's patch 06:38] I have a short to-do list... 06:38] Finish the d-items for Troves 06:39] Which is basically just the few wrapper functions I need to identify items properly 06:39] * greensnark gives due adrenaline injections. 06:39] greensnark: Valentine's day is Oct 7, right? 06:39] The blasted of-flame-of-flame deaths... 06:39] greensnark is doing alligator foes. :D 06:39] greensnark: also, why do you know? 06:39] These germans are crazy :P 06:39] And the wizlab cleanup. 06:39] Fuck the Valentines! 06:39] wizlab cleanup, best cleanup 06:39] hmm, do poisonous needles not spawn in stacks larger than 5-6 anymore? 06:39] yes 06:39] cbus: Nope. 06:40] hmm 06:40] doh *drop blowgun* 06:40] they're better now 06:40] due: Could allow needles to spawn in their original quantities 06:40] better? 06:40] Poisoned darts are much better 06:40] greensnark: Hm. 06:40] Needles are the same 06:40] Okay. 06:40] Sigh, my pretty if case will become ugly again. 06:41] ?? nikola 06:41] nikola[1/1]: !tv !78291 killer=Nikola 1 06:41] @?? nikola 06:41] Nikola (11@) | Speed: 9 | HD: 18 | Health: 190 | AC/EV: 1/9 | Damage: 20 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(120) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 3665 | Sp: shock, chain lightning, blink, b.lightning. 06:45] Oh, before I go 06:45] Are we seriously considering releasing 0.6 next month? 06:47] I would like that, yes, but I don't set release dates :) 06:47] Okay, cool. 06:47] Nacht, -dev ;) 06:49] the one thing that's missing from 0.6 is DS, will go into 0.7, I talked to Sorear about this 06:49] greensnark: we never set release dates so far! 06:50] greensnark: once the AC is in (whoever does this, a commit message as explicit as greensnark's last one please) 06:50] Oh 06:50] I will write a mail to c-r-d with the plan 06:50] I was planning to write "AC changes" :P 06:50] yes, I hoped so :) 07:04] hmm "Fritraewk" is not known to either Gretell nor Henzell? 07:04] Is he a special guy? 07:10] Penetration brand inventory tile (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=521) by Porkchop 07:16] * Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 07:23] are slime craetures meant to split back to their original parts when bringing them up stairs? 07:37] Napkin: lurker/spammer? 07:37] Vandal: Hi there! 07:37] * Kyrris has left ##crawl-dev 07:37] reporting it as ab ug then since no reply 07:40] slime creatures unsplitting on stair ascent (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=522) by cbus 07:48] see you later, switching OS 07:48] * dpeg has quit IRC ("Lost terminal") 07:56] * Timbermaw has joined ##crawl-dev 08:07] * dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 08:07] * ChanServ sets mode: +o dpeg 08:17] 03haranp 07direction-rewrite * rdbb4f7ba3877 10/crawl-ref/source/ (directn.cc directn.h item_use.cc): More improvements to direction(). 08:17] 03haranp 07direction-rewrite * r67be55e3c377 10/crawl-ref/source/ (30 files in 8 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into direction-rewrite 08:17] yay! 08:18] dpeg: The AEVP calc is for body armour only, right? 08:18] Or does it apply to things like bardings 08:18] greensnark: yes, only body armour does anything 08:18] Because currently bardings carry their own EVP 08:18] greensnark: also, note that the heavy/light distinction should go away 08:18] So are those simple, unmodified EVP? 08:18] greensnark: ah, didn't even now that :) 08:18] dpeg: Yes, light/heavy armour elimination is clear 08:19] I'll just leave bardings as an unadjusted EVP, they're only -2 08:19] ok 08:19] We can change it later if necessary 08:20] sorry to interrupt - greensnark, did you finish with ctrl+c and clean_map? 08:20] Napkin: Yes, is it not working? 08:20] just asking, because I still have this one issue opened in Mantis 08:20] will check it now :D 08:22] or.. I will modify the savegame backup/transfer script first :) 08:32] The adjusted shield penalty (ASP) formula mentions size_factor 08:32] I presume this is different from the EV size factor of (SIZE_MEDIUM - body_size) 08:32] greensnark: yes, because shields of different sizes affect species differently 08:32] Because the EV size factor is larger for smaller species 08:33] Oh ok, I'd isunderstood 08:33] So what is the conclusion: SP - d(shieldsskill) / (5 + size_factor) 08:34] yes 08:34] Larger size factor (smaller body) = larger shield penalty, which is what we want, right? 08:34] exactly 08:34] Cool 08:34] for Trolls and Ogres, shields don#t matter as much 08:34] I am not fully sure that the randomness is necessary there. 08:35] The randomnness is a problem there, actually :P 08:35] It affects displayed EV :P 08:35] greensnark: bad! 08:35] greensnark: can you estimate that nothing bad happens if we simply take the mean value? 08:36] Looks fine to me 08:36] mana minibar too long (g7d59d74) (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=523) by ortoslon 08:50] 03haranp 07direction-rewrite * r9b4a7a57aebb 10/crawl-ref/source/ (directn.cc directn.h): Always print items when just_looking. Fix capitalization. 08:52] * greensnark goes to get coffee. 08:57] greensnark do you think you can get the validate thing to play nice with subvaults ? 08:58] Mu_: I'm doing the AC change, but I shall get to validation after that 08:59] I didn't fully understand how to retrieve subvault glyphs from the parent vault after the vaults are merged 08:59] Currently the validation code just says "Subvault? Call it floor, LOL" :P 09:00] ok :p thank you 09:03] prost, greensnarking! 09:07] greensnark: afaiu, you shouldn't fiddle with subvaults after they're placed. 09:08] * Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 09:08] * ChanServ sets mode: +v Zaba 09:09] script to automatically upgrade all saves to the latest possible version works \o/ 09:10] Napkin: you are a hero! 09:10] lol, no 09:11] but greensnark told me to take a break from playing :D 09:11] btw, there is a dpeque char in a version from November idling :> 09:12] dpeg: Mu_ is using a validate hook on a parent vault, which is always returning true because the parent vault is not able to see inside subvaults and doesn't know what features are intervening, and assumes they're floor 09:12] I have a character from the august tournament still going 09:12] just started playing it again the other day 09:12] I wonder if I'll finish before 0.6 09:12] stabwound: Play trunk :P 09:12] It's fun! 09:12] my lag is too high to CDO :( 09:12] Oh 09:12] * pointless_ has joined ##Crawl-dev 09:12] * ChanServ sets mode: +v pointless_ 09:13] dpeg: Is Zin on the 0.7 agenda? 09:13] I tried a DEHu of Zin, and I've had a lot of trouble gaining piety :P 09:13] I guess gold sac is needed 09:13] ~200ms, stabwound 09:14] yes 09:14] where are you? 09:14] canada 09:14] speed of light sucks :( 09:14] routed through the netherlands - interesting 09:15] but it still should be 120-140ish 09:16] greensnark: yes, Enne couldn't foresee marker madness when he came up with subvaults. 09:16] yeah, I get around 75ms to CAO, which is perfect, but 200ms is way too high for me 09:16] dpeg: For the spellcasting penalty: New Race Mod: 25 for elven, -15 for dwarven, 15 for race match (plus an indirect effect if you get virtual armour skill) 09:16] The formula doesn't quite explain how virtual armour skill factors in there :) 09:16] nothing I can do, sorry, stabwound 09:16] greensnark: There is a full plan for zin and I had hoped that dolorous might be able to code, but doesn't look like it. 09:16] * Zaba_ has quit IRC (Connection timed out) 09:17] ahh, it's no problem :P 09:17] Should the virtual armour bonus be applied to AEVP? 09:17] tried 3 hosts in germany I have access to - all have 200ms to you 09:17] * eith has joined ##crawl-dev 09:17] when pinging you (and my route goes through Germany), I see that >70ms of your ping is waste inside your ISP 09:17] greensnark: I have no idea! :O 09:17] I mean, in the AEVP, should it be using plain Armour skill 09:17] yes 09:17] Or base armour skill + bonus for racial equipment 09:17] I'm guessing the former 09:18] Which means I don't understand the "plus an indirect effect if you get virtual armour skill" :) 09:18] !seen drpraetor 09:18] I last saw DrPraetor at Sat Jan 16 17:59:02 2010 UTC (6d 22h 19m 28s ago) quitting with message Connection timed out. 09:18] us-chi01a-ri2-gi-3-0-0.aorta.net is 153ms, a.core3-i.ip.execulink.net is 167ms, then you are at 220ms 09:18] greensnark: this is only about racial armours, rightß 09:18] dpeg: It's only for the spellcasting penalty for racial body armours worn by players of the same race, yes 09:19] We can resolve this later 09:19] I did play CDO from Toronto well, but I may be too slow to notice lages. 09:19] greensnark: yes, exactly 09:19] We didn't discuss racial traits properly anyway. 09:20] Hehe, my routing to cdo goes through Los Angeles :P 09:20] And then to Washington and Frankfurt :P 09:20] Napkin: a different issue: most of big changes for 0.6 went in very recently, so stats/milestones/kills/etc from pre-release versions will really muddle the water 09:20] greensnark: it is missing Auckland! 09:21] they always were, kilobyte 09:21] Napkin: what about marking pre-release games somehow? 09:21] that's why there is no stats about them etc 09:21] what for? 09:21] !lg * src=cdo x=alpha 09:21] Wake up Henzell 09:21] once 0.6 is released, 0.6 will get a blank logfile & milestone & score file 09:22] most queries include just the version, I don't remember ever seeing someone issuing a query with source 09:22] 71118. [alpha=y] soldroz the Shooter (L6 HEAM), slain by a wyvern zombie on D:6 on 2010-01-23, with 602 points after 4094 turns and 0:16:12. 09:22] svn games should be marked alpha=y 09:22] it would suck to lose the games from the logs, though 09:22] Most queries don't use it, yes 09:22] oh, that's something you need to ask the henzell maintainer 09:23] don't lose games, we need them for statistics 09:23] right, my idea would be to mark the games as 0.6a or some such 09:23] Hm, I could do that 09:23] * greensnark puts that on todo. 09:24] thanks, greensnark 09:24] :) 09:25] Maybe I can include alpha games in the main CAO scoring pages as well, marked as such? 09:25] dpeg: choose colours: acid blobs : light cyan, or acid blobs: yellow, Royal Jelly: light magenta, Dissolution: light cyan 09:25] I should ask rax 09:25] greensnark: would be great! 09:25] greensnark: yes yes yes 09:26] rax has to agree :) 09:26] rax: You around? 09:26] unfortunately, I just annoyed Rachel, better somebody else asks 09:26] kilobyte: what are acid blobs now? 09:27] dpeg: light cyan, but the commit message says clearly "tentatively". I just had to choose something when taking light green for big slime creatures. 09:28] since that was a single recolouring, not three 09:28] kilobyte: hm, seems as if AB->lightcyan was easiest. What do you think= 09:32] well, I like the three changes option slightly better but only before taking the number of changes into account. Inertia means that the one change option is slightly better, probably. 09:33] But if we don't know, we may toss a coin or something :p 09:33] Either is better than keeping the FR open. 09:34] kilobyte: agreed 09:35] kilobyte: there is one more reason to not change colours too much: less work on tiles needed. 09:35] so let's keep a yellow Royal Jelly, okayß 09:35] cool. 09:37] i'd like to update CDO - anything in the near queue I should wait for? 09:38] Napkin: yes, wait for greensnark 09:38] AC changes are still 2 hours away 09:38] I need to sanity-check and write up the commit exegesis :P 09:38] worth the wait :) 09:39] one last pre-AC/EV overhaul build it is :D 09:39] greensnark: commit message longer than the commit itself? :) 09:39] how do I switch branches in git? 09:39] git brach SituationalMadness ? 09:39] git checkout 09:40] If you don't have a local branch corresponding to the remote branch yet: git checkout -b origin/remotebranchname 09:40] git branch 09:40] first 09:40] thanks 09:41] Napkin: how's your dad doing? 09:41] dying bravely 09:41] ;) 09:41] :) 09:42] To be honest, I loved the feeling of certain death when playing 4.1. 09:42] a bit frustrated about dying to be honest 09:42] will play with him this evening a bit 09:50] *phew* 09:50] "SQLite does not enforce the length of a VARCHAR. You can declare a VARCHAR(10) and SQLite will be happy to let you put 500 characters in it. And it will keep all 500 characters intact - it never truncates." 09:50] that just saved my butt :D 09:50] Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2630-g4afa74bf0 (16.1) 10:03] Haran's new targeting interface kicks a buttload of asses. 10:03] rodents of unusual size <-- capybara! 10:15] hmm, Cheibriados nuking your piety for removing ponderousness really deserves a message. 10:15] kilobyte: yes! 10:15] btw, does Che still give piety if you eat your bread and are full? 10:16] not anymore, it gave any meaningful piety only if you worn gourmand and scummed levels 10:17] "Cb REALLY dislikes you throwing away his blessings." -- would be good if not for gender reference 10:17] but using a male ending kind of fixes the gender anyway 10:18] what other message would you use? 10:18] Hm, for combat bonuses, the new formulas specify penalties for shield + 1.5 hander 10:18] yes, I think that is intentional 10:18] Which means I have to up the stats of 1.5 handers and remove the existing random bonus for no-shield, correct? 10:19] 'Cb REALLY dislikes you removing the blessing of ponderousness', etc. 10:19] 1.5 handers currently have stats that assume you're using them with a shield 10:19] And if you go shieldless, they get to-hit and dam bonuses 10:19] aha! 10:19] Since the new formula factors in the shield math as penalties, I should up their base stats, right? 10:19] "Cb disapproves of your removal of this item." 10:20] dpeg: it doesn't convey -67 piety, when mere -5 give bit fat messages and put you in penance 10:20] 67??? 10:20] s/bit/big/ 10:21] yes, please, greensnark :> 10:21] yes, currently you lose 1/3 piety for removing ponderousness. That's... extreme, especially for a grossly underpowered god. 10:21] greensnark: yes, I think that is the only sane way 10:21] Cb is 'deeply saddened' by... 10:21] kilobyte: I don't think that the piety loss is the final solution 10:22] It's not like losing even 1/5th of it would be a small amount :P 10:23] Keskitalo? 10:24] * greensnark mews. 10:24] Hand and half bonus was being applied after skill multiplier 10:24] Ok, I shall boldly go and make 1.5 handers rock :P 10:25] \o/ 10:25] +1 base to-hit and damage :P 10:25] pffff :-P 10:25] :D 10:25] Base damage :P 10:25] Which is very valuable :) 10:26] greensnark: the +1 right in the weapon stats, yesß 10:26] I do feel a powerful disinclination ot make broad axes more popular, so I'll give them the miss :P 10:27] Damn, polearms :P 10:28] you can't overimprove polearms, they were nerfed into oblivion 10:28] I think the new word for demon tridents will be "ridiculous" :P 10:29] even when they were capable of speed, no one sane used them on non-merfolk 10:29] Demon tridents have always been pretty respectable, though 10:29] And you can get them off impalers now :P 10:30] I like polearms of reaching. 10:31] dpeg: what about removing the reaching brand and making it a property of polearms? 10:31] that would make Shoals harder, too 10:33] kilobyte: I have toyed with this idea for a long time. 10:33] Never got enough support to just do it. 10:33] 03kilobyte * rcfdaf57f2fb0 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Add another grade for piety loss after mere -10 "extremely guilty". 10:33] 03kilobyte * r26ebeafe33e9 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Give a message when removing ponderousness as a CB worshipper. 10:33] Now is not the time, but I hope we can get weapon specials in 0.7. And then all polearms should be reaching, yes. 10:33] you want support? If someone disagrees, give them the stats of weapon types used. 10:34] kilobyte: well, by that argument we can remove Nagas right away :) 10:34] !lg * ktyp=winning skill=polearms 10:34] 145. undermind the Minotaur Porcupine (L27 MiMo), worshipper of Trog, escaped with the Orb and 14 runes on 2010-01-17, with 9320925 points after 111500 turns and 11:42:58. 10:34] !lg * ktyp=winning skill=axes 10:34] 391. xyblor the Axe Maniac (L27 DDSt), worshipper of Makhleb, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-01-22, with 1471821 points after 89183 turns and 9:24:56. 10:34] !lg * ktyp=winning skill=maces&flails 10:34] No games for * (ktyp=winning skill=maces&flails). 10:34] !lg * ktyp=winning skill=maces 10:34] No games for * (ktyp=winning skill=maces). 10:34] !lg * ktyp=winning skill=~maces 10:34] 85. tehpwn the Shatterer (L27 DSCK), worshipper of Makhleb, escaped with the Orb and 4 runes on 2010-01-21, with 1619212 points after 132807 turns and 9:55:39. 10:35] !lg * ktyp=winning skill=long blades 10:35] 186. Yavar the Swordmaster (L27 SEEn), worshipper of The Shining One, escaped with the Orb and 5 runes on 2010-01-21, with 2215764 points after 129493 turns and 15:31:20. 10:37] if Nagas suck compared to other races, they should be improved. The definition of "balance" is having all races roughly as good. 10:37] Actually that's not strictly the case 10:38] Game balance is more to present a reasonable challenge to players of any species at any point of the game 10:38] thats balance for multiplayer games 10:38] Having one race be distinctly easier than anotheri s fine 10:38] Right, balancing species vs each other is important for multiplier PvP style 10:38] Not so much for Crawl 10:38] kilobyte: the point is that Naga are completely fine and still unpopular. 10:39] Dear lord, I typo horribly 10:39] This is why the numbers are a bit misleading and we have to get information about over/underpowered in other ways. 10:39] greensnark: also, interpunction is endangered today. 10:40] * greensnark does not recognise "interpunction" :) 10:40] Punctuation? 10:40] ah, may be 10:40] I have Anglised the German word. 10:41] I'm not sure if being unable to escape from fights (save for teleport) is fully covered with beefs they get 10:42] I'm making some changes to the delay penalties 10:42] and there are races strictly better than other. Mi < MD in all regards if you forget skills neither of them wants anyway. 10:42] this is good though, it gives varying difficulty levels 10:43] kilobyte: Naga does not have to compete with Dwarf, they only need to be good enough to be viable and fun. They are, and they even have a niche. 10:43] kilobyte: labyrinths! 10:44] dpeg: ok, labirynths and slightly better RM, so almost strictly 10:44] !apt MD 10:44] MD: Air=150, Armour=60!, Axes=65!, Bows=150, Conj=120, Xbows=90, Darts=120, Div=130, Dodge=110, Earth=70, Ench=150, Evo=67, Exp=130, Fighting=70!, Fire=70!, Ice=130, Inv=75, Long=90, Maces=70!, Nec=160, Poison=130, Polearms=110, Shields=70!, Short=80, Slings=120, Splcast=208, Stab=130, Staves=120, Stealth=150, Summ=150, Throw=120, Tloc=150, Tmut=120, Traps=80, Unarmed=100 10:44] !apt Mi 10:44] Mi: Air=170, Armour=80, Axes=70, Bows=90, Conj=170*, Xbows=90, Darts=90, Div=170, Dodge=80, Earth=170*, Ench=170, Evo=127, Exp=140, Fighting=70!, Fire=170*, Ice=170*, Inv=97, Long=70!, Maces=70!, Nec=170*, Poison=170*, Polearms=70, Shields=80, Short=70, Slings=90, Splcast=234, Stab=100, Staves=70!, Stealth=130, Summ=170*, Throw=90, Tloc=170*, Tmut=170*, Traps=120, Unarmed=80! 10:44] bows! 10:44] it's pretty insulting Mi even have a higher exp modifier 10:44] and additional UC 10:44] of course MD is better than Mi but it's not a huge issue imo 10:45] also, I have plans to make dwarves small, as they should be 10:45] bows matter for hunters, and MD get crossbows which are much better than bows. 10:45] would be weird if they couldn't wield axe+shield 10:46] syllogism: small shield :) 10:46] no one would play them then :P 10:46] what really matters are aptitudes for skills you are likely to use 10:46] I don't care! 10:48] Armour: 60/80. Best weapons: 65/70. Exp: 130/140. Shields: 70/80. Fighting: 70=70. T&D: 80/120. Evoc: 67/127. Invoc: 75/97. 10:49] sure 10:49] make dwarves small would help 10:49] syllogism: could also rule that dwarven shields come in all sizes and that dwarves can use them 10:50] greensnark: when re-statting weapons, have you taken into account that handedness is a factor of race? So most gear is 1.5-handed or 2-handed for small races currently. 10:50] No, I hadn't 10:50] greensnark: long swords are 2-handed, falchions 1.5-handed 10:50] I haven't dealt with the hand-half changes yet, they're messy 10:51] But I think there's no need to worry about the non-base-hand-halfers anyway 10:51] okay, Go time 10:51] targeting interface is on a good way 10:52] * greensnark is mired in delay calcs :P 10:52] together with AC nerf, we're ready to go :) 10:52] 2-handed stuff never degrades to 1.5 or 1 though, so I'd say it's better to keep 1.5 bonuses instead of changing the stats and adding maluses 10:53] that may be a bit late 10:53] This will need some iterations anyway 10:53] But I haven't examine the hand-half mess in depth yet :P 10:55] * TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 10:58] the issue is, you'd have to give falchions big stats and degrade them depending on race, which leads to a bigger mess compared to the current system 10:58] No, I think falchions have decent base damage 10:59] I haven't reviewed any of that in detail yet 10:59] I'll get to that soon :) 10:59] I mean, if you want to give people penalty for wielding 1.5-handed with a shield 11:00] I'm not very worried about that, actually 11:00] Shields are very strong currently :) 11:00] yes 11:00] But in any case, this will just be the first iteration 11:00] Changes are almost inevitable :) 11:00] although there's a trend to use 2-handers again, for damage purposes 11:00] * dpeg has quit IRC ("Atari!") 11:06] idea: instead of varied base damage, we can store weapon stats assuming 1-handedness and calculating 2-handed/1.5-handed bonus on the fly 11:07] like, weapon acquirement code assumes a 1/1.5-handed weapon is worth the same as a 2-handed weapon with 1.5* the damage 11:13] For simplicity I'd prefer retaining the current base damages 11:13] The hand-half bonuses were defined with ref to base humans, so we fix their base stats 11:13] After that, if small races want to avoid shield penalties, they can skip shields or beef up their shield skill 11:14] If the shield penalties are too high, let's just fix that 11:14] We may want to do more complex things, but that's better pushed past 0.6 11:14] The simplest changes that work for 0.6 is what I'm looking for :) 11:16] I'm still pretty unsure about these new delay and tohit/todam modifiers for combat 11:16] minor change to 1.5-handed weapons (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=524) by TGW 11:20] Naughty TGW :P 11:21] ? 11:21] I'm not even sure what you're talking about 11:21] I just joined here, saw "1.5" and said "oh yeah I should FR that one thing I've been sitting on forever" 11:24] What were the conclusions on armour/dodging training? 11:24] Do both of them train normally now? 11:25] Ok, I'm going to make them do just that, and we can fix the breakage later :P 11:25] * by has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 11:25] * by_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:25] * ChanServ sets mode: +v by_ 11:26] is the CDO tracker the official one now? 11:26] stabwound: Yes, pretty much 11:26] ah, okay 11:31] so has anything important happened in the past day or so? 11:31] * doy doesn't feel like reading scrollback 11:32] Hell has no wrath like scrollback spurned. 11:32] It will gnaw on your dreams! 11:33] First iter of AC changes should happen within an hour or three 11:34] nice 11:36] Inconsistent missile ID (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=525) by tinyrodent 11:38] * Disconnected 11:38] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 11:38] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 11:38] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 11:38] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 11:38] stabwound: subjectively, use_fake_player_cursor=true helps a lot with lag for me 11:39] * by_ is now known as by 11:41] Centaur Paladin tile (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=526) by Porkchop 11:42] greensnark: does that include capless dex? 11:43] * Twinge has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 11:43] For the first iteration, yes 11:43] It's likely to be hit by a stepdown pretty fast though :P 11:44] <3 11:44] oh hey, stabwound's back 11:44] (: 11:46] Armour + Dodging training needs a close look 11:46] !tell dpeg I'm skipping Armour/Dodging/Stealth training changes for now, since there's no consensus there. 11:46] greensnark: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 11:46] !tell dpeg This means we still have the heavy/light distinction for skill training porpoises. 11:46] greensnark: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 11:46] Identified branded ammunition not behaving properly (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=54) by Eronarn 11:57] Inconsistent wield messages (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=527) by tinyrodent 12:02] * ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 12:05] * NoX1ouS has quit IRC ("leaving") 12:09] * Enne has joined ##crawl-dev 12:09] * ChanServ sets mode: +v Enne 12:15] greensnark: What's under discussion for that? 12:15] Iainuki: Skill training, you mean? I'm not sure that has been discussed much at all 12:15] Yes. 12:17] Autoexplore bug (Tiles) (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=528) by Eifeltrampel 12:19] * Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 12:19] Twinge_, hey I wanted to touch bse with you, are the Xom changes you had in mind on the Xom wiki? 12:26] * Disconnected 12:26] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 12:26] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 12:26] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 12:26] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 12:29] * Disconnected 12:38] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 12:38] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 12:38] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 12:38] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 12:40] Cryptic: My ISP is fubar, especially this time of day, so I may be disconnecting a lot :/ 12:40] I'm not sure how many of the good Xom ideas I've seen or thought up are on the wiki, I'll have to check it out 12:40] by: godconduct.cc:886: error: ‘_dock_piety’ was not declared in this scope 12:41] huh, thanks 12:45] 03by * r788a92e75cce 10/crawl-ref/source/godconduct.cc: Fix compile. 12:46] * Twinge has quit IRC (Connection timed out) 12:49] * Disconnected 12:50] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 12:50] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 12:50] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 12:50] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 12:50] Twinge, did you get the message I just sent? 12:52] negative 12:52] I'm looking over the wiki page now 12:53] * Disconnected 12:55] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 12:55] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 12:55] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 12:55] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 12:55] One thing that would be nice is if resting could avoid redrawing the screen 12:56] But I don't think that's the main culprit 12:56] yeah, this happens even when there's no redrawing to be done 12:57] * Disconnected 12:59] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 12:59] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 12:59] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 12:59] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 12:59] !lg -2 12:59] 757. doy the Chopper (L6 DrCr), slain by an ice beast on D:5 on 2010-01-18, with 557 points after 7481 turns and 0:37:44. 12:59] !lg -3 12:59] 756. doy the Skirmisher (L1 DrCr), slain by a hobgoblin (a +0,+0 club) on D:1 on 2010-01-11, with 26 points after 163 turns and 0:00:27. 12:59] Cryptic: Might be best to wait a bit and see if my disconnects calm down before we try to have a conversation :/ 13:01] * Disconnected 13:03] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 13:03] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 13:03] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 13:03] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 13:03] that lists 10 commits that are ambiguous at 7 characters 13:04] the collisions are all with non-commit objects so far, but it's still irritating when feeding into things like git show 13:05] oh, no, one of the collisions is two commit objects 13:05] for git-describe, we can go to another namespace by creating a new tag, we already have 0.6.0-a0 and 0.6.0-a1 13:06] kilobyte: sure, but i want to be able to just copy the rev and say "git show " 13:06] and have it work 13:06] "git show 0.6.0-a1-2634-g788a92e" works 13:07] The Xom wiki section is pretty awkward; the 'New ideas' section seems to actually be the 'jpeg is planning on implementing these' section :P 13:07] oh really 13:08] it also works by counting commits by the last named tag, so the hash part is used only for non-linear parts 13:09] of course, in places where we use a hash rather than the version string (git describe), your observation about too short hashes remains valid 13:10] heh, I see CDO was just changed to use 9 characters rather than 7 :p 13:11] (: 13:11] i guess napkin's already ahead of me! 13:12] but really, any reason to not crack open -a2? 13:12] shrug, any reason *to* do it? 13:13] less risk of hash clash, and someone did -a0 and -a1 before, that's all 13:13] i'd say wait for the ac stuff to go in, and tag it as -b0 13:13] and mark that as the feature freeze 13:15] but if someone who knows more about our build system wanted to go through and add --abbrev=9 or whatever to our git describe invocations, wherever they are, that would be nice too 13:17] it's used in four places, 3 in makefile, 1 in util/gen_ver.pl 13:17] * Twinge has quit IRC (No route to host) 13:19] since it's just a disambiguation for non-linear history, it would just make version numbers longer, though 13:19] * Twinge_ has quit IRC (No route to host) 13:19] unless we detach the hash from commit count somewhere 13:19] shrug, 22 vs 24 characters isn't a big deal, really 13:20] right 13:20] actually 13:21] just using --abbrev on its own makes git figure out how many characters to use to be non-ambiguous 13:21] that's probably the best solution 13:22] 03by * r7149ab91fba3 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files): Split out godprayer.{cc,h} from religion.cc. 13:23] for git-describe anyway 13:24] oh, indeed the man page says it will use more when needed. Cool! 13:24] 03greensnark * r29850c7c4740 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files): AC/EV changes as outlined on CDO wiki. 13:26] for places where we use just the bare hash (if those exist?) should probably specify --abbrev=9 specifically 13:26] * Twinge-- is now known as Twinge 13:26] since later commits could make them ambiguous after the fact 13:39] CDO banner is the only place where we use a bare abbreviation of a hash, as far as I know 13:40] hey, who was removing misleading randart names? 13:40] "[weapon] of Pain" is still a candidate 13:40] which has the same problem as the rest 13:40] of Insufficient Pleasure 13:47] 03kilobyte * r8e9310a21b4d 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/rand_wpn.txt: Don't use "of Pain" as a randart name. 13:47] kilobyte: cool! 13:47] hey guys, what's with the abbrev thingy? 13:47] suddenly 9? 13:48] did it grow by itself because it became necessary? 13:48] Napkin: did you not do that? 13:48] * Mu_ has quit IRC ("Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.") 13:49] * Cryp71c has quit IRC 13:49] no, i compiled like always - and saw that the abbrev given by git-describe was suddenly 9 13:49] luckily sqlite ignored my varchar(7) setting in the column ;) 13:50] oh, heh, it looks like that revision is ambiguous even at 8 chars 13:50] so yeah, something probably did just autoexpand it 13:50] I adjusted the scripts - so CDO is abbrev=9 safe now ;) 13:51] good 13:51] (: 13:51] doy: Napkin won his first server game today :) 13:51] nice(: 13:51] \o/ 13:51] Napkin: congratulations 13:51] thank you :) 13:52] !lg napkin 13:52] 338. Napkin the Farming Annihilator (L27 HEFE), worshipper of Vehumet, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-01-23, with 1217491 points after 210566 turns and 37:34:22. 13:52] I blame a big part on greensnark! :> 13:52] grats napkin 13:52] how did I become farming :-O 13:52] 200k turns :P 13:52] too much of resting? 13:52] aahhh 13:52] :D 13:52] there must be something wrong with the turn counting... 13:52] !lg 13:53] 1512. rob the Imperceptible Farmer (L27 DDTh), worshipper of Sif Muna, escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2010-01-22, with 1104074 points after 323468 turns and 31:45:48. 13:53] violetj: elly: rax: help help 13:53] is there really 13:53] syllogism: doubt it 13:53] TGWi: ? 13:53] the bots are getting pretty bad in ##crawl 13:53] OPs can't really do much about that, besides +r 13:53] Huh, where are the bots? 13:53] they get auto-killed though 13:54] they figured out ctcp now, yeah :/ 13:54] syllogism: that was what I was hoping 13:54] syllogism: it worked last time 13:54] greensnark: they're not spamming messages anymore, but ctcp versions 13:54] so +R won't stop them i think 13:54] Oh 13:54] Yeah, I /ignored ctcp requests when the last notice suggested it 13:55] yeah, that is probably a good idea :P 13:55] greensnark: how does that go down? 13:56] I did /ignore *!*@* CTCPS 14:00] thanks, greensnark 14:01] Napkin: ? 14:01] I missed the wall message, where they told to set that ignore 14:01] Oh, that 14:01] you repeated it, I repeated it in window 1 ;) 14:01] :) 14:10] 03by * r364737a546fd 10/crawl-ref/source/ (player.cc player.h tags.cc tags.h): Add field player::che_saved_ponderousness. 14:10] 03by * r9d6ab8d275d2 10/crawl-ref/source/ (player.cc player.h): Optionally count melded armour in player_equip_ego_type. 14:10] 03by * rbc868ace6609 10/crawl-ref/source/godprayer.cc: Enable Cheibriados prayer, tracking ponderousness at start and end. 14:10] 03by * r978a9999a276 10/crawl-ref/source/it_use2.cc: Don't cut piety for unpondering during prayer. 14:10] 03by * r1511ae9402e5 10/crawl-ref/source/godconduct.cc: Make DID_UNPONDEROUS piety cut depend on level. 14:10] what's chei prayer do? 14:10] ponder you? 14:12] TGWi: nothing currently, just allows temporarily removing ponderous armour without piety loss 14:12] I didn't know there was piety loss for that 14:12] so if you put it back on before the prayer ends you're okay? 14:12] no piety loss that is 14:13] MarvinPA: yes 14:13] TGWi: it's new 14:13] cool 14:13] by: was there a problem? 14:13] that seems kind of silly 14:13] TGWi: it was added when you became able to ponderousify non-body armour 14:14] because otherwise you could just leave ponderousness on your gloves or whatever, and just take it off to run away 14:14] and that's dumb 14:14] there was an issue before: switching armour to fight weak opponents is not fun 14:14] could make pondered non-body armour just take a long time to equip/dequip 14:14] since it's a chei-only effect 14:15] * scarf has joined ##crawl-dev 14:15] but now, you would stay ponderous most of the time and pray+remove ponderous gloves if you want to fight something strong without being slow? 14:15] what by said still applies though 14:15] there's still the piety scumming by constantly switching armour issue 14:15] MarvinPA: I'm in the process of addressing that 14:15] which is also dumb 14:16] okay, well i've never got very far with chei and i don't know exactly what you're aiming for either way :P 14:17] 03by * r7fe2bb4e80a9 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: During Che prayer, removing ponderous armour doesn't speed you up. 14:17] that doesn't seem any less dumb 14:18] ? 14:18] prayer to retain a brand of armour you're not wearing 14:19] seems like you could keep pondered forever without actually using any equipment, yeah? 14:19] the prayer has to end sometime 14:19] no it doesn't 14:20] other prayer effects will come; perhaps even disallow movement entirely 14:22] maybe prayer should just not allow anything to speed you up, at all 14:22] including things like removing ponderousness 14:22] but should also make you slower with time 14:22] so eventually you can't move 14:23] it's true that 7fe2bb doesn't work well; I still don't think it's appropriate to call it "dump" 14:23] prayer that makes you slow is the second coming of praying before kills 14:23] s/dump/dumb/ 14:23] doy was calling the alternative dumb :| 14:24] doy: as in, can't move in any direction? 14:24] or as in, blue jelly with unchanging in NetHack? 14:24] (context: the bug basically means you don't get any more turns ever, all game, you just have to sit there and watch) 14:25] 03by * rb2163f1ee0f1 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Revert "During Che prayer, removing ponderous armour doesn't speed you up." 14:25] * TGWi high five 14:25] it should preserve your overall speed, but the 'slower with time' thing should just affect movement, i guess 14:26] I think I'll just leave it as is, for now; the piety loss mechanic is in, and someone else will have to come up with a way to discourage abusing prayer 14:29] or, as a quick fix before something better comes up, just make prayer cause overall slowness? 14:32] "prayer that makes you slow is the second coming of praying before kills" 14:32] ie tedious 14:32] people would also pray before using slouch, etc 14:39] !tell Cryp71c I added my comments to the exisiting Xom ideas on the wiki and added a handful of other ideas as well. Maybe start with the things that both dpeg and I think are good ideas and are also interesting to you or easy to do? 14:39] Twinge: OK, I'll let Cryp71c know. 14:41] * Disconnected 14:41] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 14:41] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 14:41] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 14:41] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 14:45] TGWi, scarf, doy: if you have ideas for Che prayer (or how to solve the issue differently), please add to the Che wiki 14:45] * Twinge has quit IRC (Operation timed out) 14:46] I'm unclear as to what issue you're trying to solve 14:46] I'll need to read up on how exactly Che works, first 14:46] TGWi: allowing armour swapping without getting a piety hit 14:46] I'm not good at playing slow characters, so I've never managed to test him 14:47] doy: can't you just do that 14:47] "just do that"? 14:48] allow armour swapping without getting a piety hit 14:48] but how? 14:48] remove the piety hit? 14:49] like the prayer but always 14:49] so... then people can just take off their ponderous armour whenever they want to run away 14:49] so make it take a long time 14:50] ok, so the issue is that what we want is that players should choose whether to slow themselves for long periods of time, or not 14:50] but not keep swapping 14:50] * Twinge_ is now known as Twinge 14:50] Is crawl a funny game??? I just read the german description of the ubuntu crawl packet. 14:51] Eifel: the description for NetHack makes it out to be much funnier than it is 14:51] so I assume that whoever's packaging them does that for all roguelikes 14:51] TGWi: leave all the rats and goblins alive, go upstairs, change clothes, go downstairs, kill them 14:51] scarf: they even translatet stone soup to german.... 14:51] what about armour becoming unponderous when it's removed, and pondering it gives you a piety hit? 14:52] scarf's solution is interesting! 14:52] I'll put it on the wiki 14:52] dpeg wants ponderousify to also make the armour better, eventually 14:52] not sure how that would interact with those plans 14:53] Kerkerkrabblersteinsuppe? 14:53] scarf: great, thanks 14:53] sounds yummy :) 14:53] Steinsuppenvariante von Dungeon Crawl. 14:54] doy: attach the bonus to chei instead of the armour 14:54] +X AC per pondered article 14:54] TGWi: possible 14:54] dpeg was talking about the potential for it creating randarts, but i think i disagree with that anyway 14:54] yeah don't do that 14:55] Translation is a matter of luck. I know that :) 14:55] it's not ideal that you can make a GDA of ponderousness but not a robe of resistance of ponderousness... 14:55] I forget, is anything about GDA ideal? 14:56] did we ever knock down the ac of gda? 14:56] or were we just talking about it 14:56] yes, I think so 14:56] yeah you did 14:56] it's 11 I think 14:57] randartifying things has the risk of ruining some really good armour; it would be a high-risk strategy 14:57] and some players don't like that 14:57] * hashc has quit IRC ("Ex-Chat") 14:57] Something shouldn't be translated at all 14:57] scarf: well, that's not really a reasonable argument 14:57] well, yes 14:57] I'm more thinking aloud 14:58] crawl is all about high-risk strategies, whines about that are probably some of the most annoying ones 14:58] hmm, I reached Snake:5 today for the first time 14:59] and it struck me as a) looking like a branch end, and b) being relatively easy for one 14:59] I died on Snake:4 before I got the rune, to a single anaconda 14:59] rather than the mobs on the level below 14:59] scarf: then you were probably lucky on Snake:5 14:59] scarf: lair and orc are the only branches without actual branch ends 14:59] hasted greater naga can be terrifying 14:59] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZWus82h3MY&feature=player_embedded required viewing for anoyne who doesn't support adding more plant monsters :D 15:00] "looking like a branch end" is intentional for most of the game 15:00] I was basically going downstairs, summoning a few demons, waiting until something came next to me and then going upstairs 15:00] (it /is/ a branch end, right?) 15:00] yes 15:00] eronarn: there are the dudes that completley curl up when you touch them 15:00] I sometimes think Snake has 6 levels, which has caused some nasty surprises 15:00] anacondas are tough, but not really anywhere near the difficulty of greater nagas 15:01] the greater nagas were much easier 15:01] summon, summon, summon, summon, run 15:01] (100 turns later) you feel a bit more experienced 15:01] if they got anywhere near catching up with me, I went up a level and did it agtain 15:01] *again 15:01] !lg ais523 15:01] 32. ais523 the Cleaver (L8 MDFi), worshipper of Okawaru, blasted by an orc priest (divine providence) on D:6 on 2010-01-01, with 1372 points after 4329 turns and 0:23:29. 15:01] doy: local 15:02] lame 15:02] not really, I rarely play Crawl while I have an internet connection 15:02] makhleb? 15:02] yep 15:02] yeah, that's a reasonable strategy 15:02] pretty heavy on the piety though 15:02] I was leaking piety rather through Snake, but got it all back towards the end 15:02] makhleb can handle snake:5 quite nicely, yeah 15:03] ah, must have just been lucky in my choice of god 15:03] makhleb is pretty good all around 15:03] I can appreciate how insanely hard Crawl is to balance 15:03] because all sorts of things are trivial for one character, and near-impossible for another 15:03] yup 15:03] there was one hilarious time that I quit in the entry vault because I was getting close to starving to death in it 15:04] it was the one with lots of plants blocking your way out, and I was playing a pure caster with very little way to kill them 15:04] doy: well, there's the hard snake:5 and the easy snake:5. The easy one is somewhat underwhelming 15:04] ogaz: true enough 15:04] although depends on how you play it 15:05] strangely, I think things like symmetry make a branch end much harder 15:05] it makes a huge difference whether monsters catch up to you all at once or one at a time 15:06] same in regular levels too, come to think of it, but less obvious 15:07] * kloeri__ has quit IRC (Broken pipe) 15:07] * kloeri__ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:11] * Disconnected 15:11] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 15:11] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 15:11] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 15:11] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 15:18] is "graphics" in Mantis used for display bugs in tty as well as in tiles? 15:19] or should it just be "bug report"? 15:19] 'graphics' is more of a subcategory of feature request 15:19] all bugs should be 'bug report' 15:19] ok 15:27] travel_delay=-1 or explore_delay=-1 causes strange display as summons expire (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=529) by ais523 15:28] * Twinge has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 15:29] hmm, how do you correctly create Pikel and his band in wizmode? I'm trying to chase down a bug 15:29] 03j-p-e-g * rbdf649316405 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/monsters/centaur_paladin.png: Add a variation of Nessos' tile to UNUSED, for a future CePa unique. 15:29] oh, &M pikel band 15:37] 03Enne * r1b43f5a16b55 10/crawl-ref/source/tilereg.cc: Make flying actors not appear to be in water. 15:37] "monster_attack() for monster 'freed slave' consumed no energy \\ 'freed slave' has same energy as last loop" (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=530) by ais523 15:45] * Disconnected 15:46] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 15:46] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 15:46] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 15:46] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 15:52] * Twinge_ has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 15:58] "All hogs revert to their human forms" for non-transformed hogs (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=531) by ogaz 16:15] 03j-p-e-g * re7e71e24190d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Add purge's burning bush tile. 16:15] * by has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 16:22] * Disconnected 16:23] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 16:23] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 16:23] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 16:23] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 16:35] Oooh, AC changes are in! 16:36] That is *excellent*. 16:37] * Timbermaw has quit IRC ("later!") 16:38] Enne: I'll be on the other PC tomorrow to test out any patches re: weird water thig. 16:39] * Twinge has quit IRC (No route to host) 16:40] due: Awesome. I'll try to be on tomorrow to sort something out. :) 16:40] * Enne has quit IRC 16:42] * Disconnected 16:43] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 16:43] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 16:43] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 16:43] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 16:43] I think consistency in cold-bloodedness would be a good thing 16:43] since it's hidden from players and generally irrelevant 16:44] currently, some D for example are cold blooded and some aren't--even among the actual dragons 16:45] * Timbermaw has quit IRC (Client Quit) 16:46] TGWi: There's a lot of in-ame cosistencies. 16:46] However, not all dragons are cold-0blooded, nor should they be. 16:46] I can't think of any similar to this, or ones I view as good things 16:46] Nor are there. 16:46] * Eifel has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:46] pretend the object of that sentence is "inconsistencies" 16:47] You're right, that's odd. 16:47] Obviously, fire-based ones shouldn't be. 16:47] at one point ice dragons could be slowed by freeze, which was kind of strange 16:47] ogaz: They still can be. 16:47] well, yes, the slowing effect should check rC and cold blooded :P 16:47] Oh. Well, it's still kind of strange 16:47] They can't, they resist cold 16:47] Ah 16:47] sorear: oh, it does now? cool 16:47] Right. 16:48] AFAIK it always did 16:48] sorear: people have definitely been able to ice dragons with freezing 16:48] I think you could slow ice dragons with freezing brand in 0.5.0 16:50] barring rC I believe dragons should be affected, being reptilian 16:50] plain old dragon has vul:ice, if that changes due's mind 16:50] I think so as well. 16:51] FR it, probably, because it's robably contentious. 16:51] fair enough 16:54] ??monsters 16:54] monsters[1/1]: Type @?monstername in this channel (or in a PM to Gretell), or see http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/kielosto/crawl_spoilers/ss/crawl_ss_monsters_by_name.html If you want to see the stats of a monster in trunk, use @?? instead of @? 16:57] * Timbermaw has joined ##crawl-dev 17:00] * Twinge_ has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 17:08] Missing descriptions for Jiyva and Cheibriados' abilities (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=532) by jpeg 17:18] are turtles cold blooded in crawl? 17:18] Yes 17:18] ok 17:19] are worms cold blooded in real life? 17:20] * scarf checks 17:20] yes 17:20] apparently so 17:20] worms have too much surface-to-mass to support a warm blooded lifestyle 17:20] the term "worm" is biologically ambiguous 17:20] but everything it's commonly applied to is cold-blooded 17:21] the smallest warm blooded creature is the shrew, and it has to eat something ridiculous like its body weight *every hour* just to support itself 17:21] as far as I know, Baksw should be cold blooded 17:21] but are not 17:21] sorear: I love so much disint <3 17:21] is sorear a biologist or something? 17:22] a worm the size of a person (exactly how big are Crawl worms?) could concievably be warm-blooded 17:23] Crawl monsters don't have particular sizes, do they? 17:23] it goes both ways - if a creature is large and active, it has to self-regulate temperature, otherwise it will overheat and catch fire like a manure pile 17:23] for swamp worms and such, it seems kind of dubious 17:23] presumably, we can imagine that all Crawl monsters are exactly the same size 17:23] trees can get away with being cold because they're so sessile 17:23] or maybe exactly the size their tiles indicate 17:24] sorear: so Pf should also be cold blooded? 17:24] sorear: dinosaurs were cold-blooded, weren't they? 17:24] scarf: all Crawl tiles are the same size for human interface reasons, it has no bearing on phisical size 17:24] scarf: They're GIANT 17:24] * ogaz_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:24] * ogaz has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 17:24] scarf: I *think* most of the dinosaurs were warm-blooded, but I'm not positive 17:24] * ogaz_ is now known as ogaz 17:24] TGWi: I'm not a biologist, I'm arguing from basic physical principles 17:25] * Timbermaw_ has joined ##crawl-dev 17:25] I need to brush up on those 17:26] sorear: shape rather matters a lot for physical-principle arguments 17:26] I can imagine a large cold-blooded creature that's relatively active, but has a large surface area 17:26] and burns off heat that way 17:26] well, radiates it 17:27] burning off heat sounds like a bad idea 17:27] yes, I was being a bit unclear 17:27] * Timbermaw_ has quit IRC (Client Quit) 17:28] given that I have a degree in electronic engineering, I should probably use the unambiguous technical term "dissipates" 17:28] Delayed Fireball works when silenced (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=533) by jpeg 17:28] Or, "sweats"? 17:29] you aren't cold-blooded if you sweat 17:30] sweating's a method of increasing the rate at which you dissipate heat 17:30] but you dissipate it even without sweating 17:31] Ashenzari: that reminds me, why don't monsters get cursed when they kill a player mummy? 17:31] how do you know they don't 17:32] slugs are poikilothermic, yeah? 17:32] kind-of hard to tell, I agree 17:32] as for the dinosaur thing, I checked on Wikipedia; apparently it was disputed for a while, but scientists now mostly think they were warm-blooded (but aren't sure of the details) 17:37] * eith has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:38] http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=534 17:38] cold-bloodedness: inter-glyph consistency and realism (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=534) by TGW 17:41] * Timbermaw has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:43] Allies insist on cutting down plants (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=535) by jpeg 17:45] 03j-p-e-g * r21f6bc56472e 10/crawl-ref/source/command.cc: Fix SF BR 2913259: Bad pluralisation in database lookup. 17:48] Odd crashes (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=536) by Nobody 17:54] * Iainuki_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:02] * due waits for further linking crashes. 18:03] Woohoo, it compiled! 18:03] Also, I broke autopickup. Go me! 18:08] Shift-targeting wizmode-spells can crash the game (ge7e71e2) (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=537) by jpeg 18:18] * Eifel has joined ##crawl-dev 18:21] Hey Eifel. 18:21] Hey 18:22] hmm, i'm having a go at writing a patch to implement http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=251 18:23] how big a stack of fruit is reasonable for you to be able to get? i have it make ones the same size as you find in the dungeon at the moment 18:24] Well 18:24] Acquirement can give you 10 or so honeycombs or royal jellies 18:24] ??honeycomb 18:24] food[1/2]: Goes in mouth. Without carnivore or herbivore: Royal jelly weighs 5.5, is 5000 nutrition. Meat weighs 8, is 5000 nutrition. Bread weighs 8, is 4400 nutrition. Honeycomb weighs 4, is 2000 nutrition. A chunk weighs 10, is 1000 nutrition. Takes 4 turns to eat rations, 3 for chunks, 2 turns for all other food. 18:24] 10 royal jelly = 10*5000 nutrition 18:25] equivalent nutrition value in fruit is not inappropriate, in my opinion 18:25] ??food[2] 18:25] food[2/2]: Sultana is 70. Grape is 100. Strawberry is 200. Lychee/choko/rambutan is 600. Apricot/pear/apple is 700. Banana/lemon/orange is 1000. Cheese/sausage is 1200. Beef jerky/pizza/snozzcumber is 1500. Porridge is 6040. Potion of water is 60. Water fountain is 20. 18:25] hmm, even though you'd be using it for plants/oklobs rather than eating, most likely? 18:25] Fruit ranges from 70 to 1000. 18:25] I think it's at leadt a place to start. 18:26] at the moment i have it just making stacks of strawberries/grapes, so you can use them for the abilities 18:26] Hm. 18:26] pointless_: Ah, you're around. Thoughts on fruit acquirement? 18:27] i am also basically learning coding just from poking around in crawl's source and looking on mantis to see if there's anything simple enough for me to figure out how to do :P 18:27] * Timbermaw has joined ##crawl-dev 18:28] Hmmm well I'd say make it like 15 pieces of fruit for now 18:30] This is going to break so many user scripts it will not be funny. 18:30] Maybe it's a bad change. 18:30] ok, rather than aiming to give it comparable nutrition with regular acquirement? 18:31] MarvinPA: You could give 15 pieces of fruit that roguhly equate to comparable nutrition value. 18:31] What does nutrition comparable to regular acquirement work out to? 18:31] or i guess it could give you stacks of bigger fruit, so you'll get reasonable nutrition 18:31] yeah 18:31] pointless_: 10*5000 or so. 18:31] Hm, maybe not. 18:31] I mean how many pieces of fruit 18:31] 4*4000. 18:31] 4*5000. My 10 was off. 18:31] anyway I don't think the nutrition aspect is important 18:31] Who acquires food in the first place? 18:31] Spriggans. 18:32] apparently vampires can acquire blood potions from it 18:32] Yeah, they can. 18:32] and it gives them like, 5 :P 18:32] Well I'm going to claim that people trying to acquire food because they are starving is a niche case that we don't really have to worry about 18:33] Why not just randomly generate a stack of 15 items that approaches the nutritional value of minimum acquirement? 18:33] You'd only end up with 15-20 or so items. 18:33] hmm I'm getting hungry ;-) 18:33] Eifel: Me too. 18:34] i could try that, i'm not so sure how to make it generate a stack of lots of different fruits though 18:34] Well the important parameter (and why we are bothering with this case in the first place) is the number of pieces of fruit Fedhas worshipers get, that does give you some leeway since different fruit have different nutritional value 18:34] * ogaz has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 18:34] everything else just picks an item and gives you x of it, ghouls get a big stack of chunks all from the same species for example 18:35] Well you can make a stack of grapes or whatever 18:35] ??food [2] 18:35] food[2/2]: Sultana is 70. Grape is 100. Strawberry is 200. Lychee/choko/rambutan is 600. Apricot/pear/apple is 700. Banana/lemon/orange is 1000. Cheese/sausage is 1200. Beef jerky/pizza/snozzcumber is 1500. Porridge is 6040. Potion of water is 60. Water fountain is 20. 18:35] You'd need 100 or so grapes just to approach the nutritional value of 1/4th the usual food acquirement. 18:35] Maybe 18:35] ?? food acquirement 18:35] I don't have a page labeled food_acquirement in my learndb. 18:35] but that'd be a heck of a lot of potential oklobs :P 18:36] Why don't we just do the usual acquirmeent, and then, for Fedhas worshippers, remove a couple of whatever given, and give instead a small stack of fruit? 18:36] The only reason to add a special case for Fedhas would be to give a largish stack of fruit, otherwise Fedhas worshipers won't bother with food acquirement 18:37] Okay, so a large stack of fruit on top of a reduced normal acquirement. 18:37] I'm not sure what the right number of pieces of fruit is, but I'm sure that number is more important than the total nutritional value of the acuirmeent 18:38] hmm, well i wouldn't know how to have it give you two different types of items from the one usage of acquirement, i could give it a go though! 18:38] MarvinPA: if you can't figure it out just make the stack of fruit as a first approach 18:38] Sure, stack of fruit's fine. 18:39] Maybe Fedhas worshippers could just get access to a new acquirement type? 18:39] maybe just a decent-ish stack of apples/pears etc might be a decent compromise between giving you a fairly large number of stuff to use abilities on, without having such a tiny nutrition conten 18:39] content* 18:39] [j] Fruit, say. 18:40] I just think that's adding unnecessary complexity 18:40] Make a stack of snozzcumbers and leave it at that imo 18:41] snozzcumbers are a fruit? :o 18:41] maybe 18:41] heh 18:41] I don't remember 18:41] No, they're a vegetable. 18:41] they may be a fruit for fedhas purposes 18:42] nope, seems not 18:42] chokos are though! 18:42] despite being described as vegetables 18:43] Choko are fruit, though. 18:43] At least I always though thtey were. 18:43] Huh, apparently not. 18:43] Ah, they're a type of melon. 18:44] heh, the things i wouldn't know without crawl 18:44] like what a quokka is! 18:44] and now chokos 18:45] chokos are gourds, yeah? 18:46] anyone know if direction-rewrite is close to being merged? 18:52] first time since a long time that I play again tiles. Looks nice :D 18:54] pointless_: Shortly, haran just wasn't sure if it broke tiles or not. 18:54] oh ok 18:54] pointless_: Haran said that was the only reason it hasn't already ben committed. 18:54] who coded faith? 18:54] snark? 18:54] I was just wondering if I should poke something in direction or wait until the merge 18:55] TGWi: si 18:55] cool 18:55] Okay, so converting the item library to a metatable system is such a brilliant idea 18:55] But is only going to cause a million more problems for people 18:57] * syllogism has quit IRC 19:06] sorear: Is there a way to apply only part of a stash? 19:06] Or get just specific parts out of it? 19:08] Find (CTRL-F) does not work for Shoals:N (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=538) by fnwc 19:09] If it's a real stash that would be very curious 19:15] btw don't give anything about my chatter...it's 3am ;-) 19:15] :) 19:17] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 19:17] * scarf|away is now known as scarf 19:28] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 19:33] * scarf|away is now known as scarf 19:37] * Scrubber has joined ##crawl-dev 19:37] We could probably do dpeg's conducts idea by storing a vector of different conducts--type, turn it happened on, something like that. 19:38] But I'm guessing it could be pretty big. 19:38] it'd be tiny 19:38] 100 conducts x 8 bytes (last turn, total number) 19:39] the level monster vector is on the order of 100,000 bytes 19:42] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 19:47] * scarf|away is now known as scarf 19:50] Probably a good way to do it, then. 19:50] for 0.7, of course. 19:52] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 19:57] * scarf|away is now known as scarf 20:09] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 20:12] * scarf|away is now known as scarf 20:21] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 20:22] * Scrubber has quit IRC (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:22] * zenna has quit IRC (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:22] * doy has quit IRC (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 20:23] * doy has joined ##crawl-dev 20:23] * zenna has joined ##crawl-dev 20:24] noticed minor graphic anomalys in trunk tiles windows file: player.png (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=539) by Porkchop 20:26] * scarf|away is now known as scarf 20:28] * Ero has joined ##crawl-dev 20:29] ood hill giant death :D 20:29] !lg 20:29] 1237. bookofjude the Caller (L5 VpWz), worshipper of Sif Muna, slain by a hill giant (a +0,+0 giant club) on D:4 on 2010-01-24, with 409 points after 5658 turns and 0:17:49. 20:34] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 20:38] * Timbermaw has quit IRC ("later!") 20:39] * scarf|away is now known as scarf 20:42] * Scrubber has joined ##crawl-dev 20:44] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 20:45] * scarf|away is now known as scarf 20:56] * Eifel has left ##crawl-dev 20:56] * Eifel1 has joined ##crawl-dev 20:58] * Eifel1 is now known as Eifel 20:59] * jld has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 20:59] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 21:01] * Iainuki_ has quit IRC 21:02] So yeah, victory dancing really has to go. 21:02] Can we make that an 0.7 taget? 21:03] * jld has joined ##crawl-dev 21:04] Oh and I love whoever add the [**...] to the piety screen 21:04] <333 21:04] it was my suggesion 21:04] and also my suggestion 21:04] * scarf|away is now known as scarf 21:05] Someone provided a patch for it out of the blue on the SF tracker a few months back 21:05] whoa wtf 21:05] * Eifel has quit IRC ("Leaving.") 21:07] * Eifel has joined ##crawl-dev 21:20] another cigotuvi! 21:21] if I were to finish this octoking garden, would it get used? 21:22] Not as a WizLab, maybe. 21:22] I'm still unsure and undecided. 21:26] I don't know what you just said 21:26] possibly, but not as a wizlab? 21:27] yeah 21:27] I'm undecided about it, because of thingy 21:27] do not make me think at the point in time 21:33] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 21:35] * scarf|away is now known as scarf 21:43] * due gone 22:33] * hashc has joined ##crawl-dev 22:53] * Scrubber has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:07] who is in charge of giving me wiki access? 23:08] i can do it but i don't have my login info on this machine 23:08] will get to it when i wake up if you post an item in the wiki section of mantis 23:09] (I need to complain about item destruction some more, because I just realized it shuffles around all your items if a slot is taken before you pick them back up) 23:14] TGW access (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=541) by TGW 23:14] init.txt "assign_item_slot = backward" not working (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=540) by tinyrodent 23:28] can anyone else replicate this, take a newest compiled build, start tutorial, make it centaur hunter, kill a kobold and try to chop it -> crash and locked out char 23:29] * pointless_ has quit IRC ("ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]") 23:36] felirx: huh, i get a crash as soon as i do anything 23:37] in the minotaur tutorial as well 23:38] all the tutorials, it loads the dungeon then crashes as soon as i press a button 23:49] * ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev Session Time: Sun Jan 24 00:00:00 2010 00:04] * hashc has quit IRC ("Ex-Chat") 00:08] * Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:14] * Mu_ has left ##crawl-dev 00:14] * Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:15] Hiya. 00:18] Hail and well met. 00:20] * mincedd has joined ##crawl-dev 00:21] * st_ has quit IRC 00:26] * st has joined ##crawl-dev 00:39] * by has joined ##crawl-dev 00:39] * ChanServ sets mode: +v by 00:40] good morning 00:41] hey rob 00:41] Apparently there are a lot of issues with the latest windows builds. 00:43] at least it builds :) 00:43] I have no access to windows at all, unfortunately 00:44] or does crawl usually work in wine? 00:44] I don't know 00:44] I don't have anny windows access at the minute either. 00:44] the windows builds should install linux 00:45] But there's a lot of random crashes when just doing things on some systems. 00:45] and we don't even get a backtrace, right? 00:45] Nope :; 00:46] someone with windows and a debugger will have to look into it -- it's quite likely it's a message window issue, but I can't really do anything beyond answering questions 00:47] could also be related to the cgotoxy/line_reader changes 00:47] could also be anything else 00:48] Yeah. 00:48] That's why it's problematic. 00:48] Are ther any free debuggers on Windows? 00:48] I can probably look into it tonight. 00:49] windbg 00:49] it is both excellent and free 00:49] Oh good 00:49] I will give it a go tonight them 00:50] Gastronok <3 00:57] I can't get it to crash at all. 00:57] Nothing with the X screen... 00:58] * ogaz_ has joined ##crawl-dev 00:59] Anyone else running windows that has had issues with it crashing? 00:59] * ogaz has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 00:59] * ogaz_ is now known as ogaz 00:59] Mu_: Was it just the X screen foor you? 01:00] as soon as i press X i see the map and the game crashes 01:00] didn't test beyond that, what else might crash? 01:01] clear_messages? 01:01] * henryci has joined ##crawl-dev 01:02] it crashes on X whether clear messages is true or not 01:04] I can confirm a crash on tutorial with an 80x24 windows console 01:04] * Ero has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:05] Looked like messagewindow confusion 01:05] I can't get a crash for aynthing 01:05] Will try tutorial, one sec 01:05] greensnark: I've basically finished rewriting l_items as a metatable. Can you think of anything I need to convert other than the dat/lua scripts? 01:06] (And how to test them?) 01:06] * henryci has left ##crawl-dev 01:06] I'm debating just leaving l_items as it is. 01:06] But I'm usure. 01:06] dat/lua is the only user-facing thing 01:07] Just make sure it doesn't leak info :) 01:07] Or leave it unchanged if you don't need it for vaults 01:07] This junk gdb on Windows is not giving me output on crash 01:11] I've got a junked traceback on windgb 01:11] windbg, just going to try doing a debug build via msysgit 01:11] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 01:12] msvc + centaur hunter + firing at things gave stack overflow 01:13] Yeah, I've got a stack overflow here. 01:15] * scarf|away is now known as scarf 01:15] What is the guilty stack frame 01:15] WHich funciton? 01:17] greensnark: 0xfkwdhfekhf gobbledegook. 01:18] I don't get anything more than a memory reference and I've no idea how to use windbg, just building a debug version. 01:18] it's could well be some use of flush_prev_message causing another message to be printed... 01:18] I've had a few of those crashes on non-windows 01:20] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 01:22] on the other hand, those usually involved clear_messages=true, since there flushing could cause the --more-- to be printed 01:22] * dexap has joined ##crawl-dev 01:22] * scarf|away is now known as scarf 01:24] are these crashes console-only, or also in tiles? 01:25] I cannot repro the X crash in 80x24 01:25] Let me try 80x25 01:26] X seems to work fine for me 01:26] if it's just console, maybe the bottom right character is involved? 01:26] I'm testing console 01:26] by: Probably 01:27] my centaur tutorial crash was on tiles 01:27] The tutorial crashes for me on the console 01:28] gdb on Windows apparently dislikes stack overflows, because I can't make it give me a backtrace 01:28] moin guys! 01:28] ni napkin 01:28] uh 01:29] s/n/h/ 01:29] I wonder if the X crash is only in debug builds 01:29] Er, release builds 01:29] I did get one crash 01:30] it's weird if tiles crashes on windows but not on unix 01:30] not weird at all ;) 01:31] Hmm 01:31] The new messagewindow uses the last line of the console, correct 01:31] I seem to remember some scrollery involved there 01:31] yes, intentionally 01:31] I fixed the scrollery bug on curses 01:32] Windows doesn't use curses though :) 01:32] It uses direct win32 terminal routines 01:32] did windows ever have the scrollery though? 01:32] It did 01:32] I'm sure windows console apps can use the bottom right character 01:32] It may be something in our wrapper libs that's forcing the scroll 01:32] so if that causes problems, it's a bug to be fixed not by not using that character 01:33] But even if it scrolls, I don't see where the crash comes in 01:33] * paxed has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:33] When I start a tutorial character, there's frantic --More-- spam and then it dies horribly 01:33] can i help testing? 01:33] Napkin: You can be a hero and get us a backtrace :D 01:33] I should try windbg 01:33] of? 01:34] Napkin: Tutorial crash on windows console build 01:34] I can't get it to compile 01:34] I hate windows 01:34] Just start a tutorial character, and the first tutorial welcome messages will blow Crawl away 01:34] greensnark: It takes me the third or fourth message, here. 01:34] But I can defiitely confirm it. 01:34] the current build on cdo? 01:34] Yeah. 01:35] centaur hunter tutorial also seems to break on tiles/mac for me 01:35] can't get past the tutorial char choice screen 01:35] Hm 01:35] Does it work in Linux? 01:35] no idea, but probably not 01:35] I'll make a local tiles build. 01:35] Maybe that'll give us a nice backtrace. 01:36] http://sprunge.us/VFYH 01:36] got to go now, later 01:36] hello! 01:37] works here 01:37] delightful 01:37] apart from the fact that the messages are drawn in the wrong parts of the screen 01:37] So, it doesn't always crash 01:37] minoraur didn't crash 01:38] Napkin: Initial screen or all of them? 01:38] minotaur eventually crashed when I tried 01:38] all additional 01:38] hm 01:38] the initial screen is fine 01:38] felirx: What oS? 01:38] win7 / tiles 01:38] Hm, winxp/notiles got a crash on CeHu/all of them. 01:39] would screenshots help? 01:39] might help to replace the c_getch() in readkey_more with a version that doesn't issue a flush_prev_message 01:40] should I make screenshots? 01:40] Napkin: May as well 01:42] http://ipxserver.dyndns.org/misc/crash/ 01:42] they are in order 01:42] that's a WinXP SP3 01:43] I get to screen three and it dies. 01:43] I tried all 3 chars 01:44] * paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 01:44] hey paxed 01:44] I don't really understand windows at all 01:45] that's part of the idea behind it, due ;) 01:45] hehehe 01:45] I have half a mind to commit this. 01:45] It seems to work as intended. 01:45] It'll just break user scripts. 01:45] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 01:46] But I don't think we should hesitate to update something that is klutzy just because it might break end-user scripts. 01:46] * scarf|away is now known as scarf 01:46] anyone using scripts? 01:47] No, just the item interface 01:47] it's gone from 01:47] item.name(it) 01:47] to it.name() 01:47] uuhmm.. ok 01:47] :) 01:47] time for me to shut up and get coffee ;) 01:48] greensnark: I basically just copied and pasted the original functions, so the only information leak existent would be any pre-existing issues. 01:51] due: Sounds fine to me 01:51] When I say user scripts, I mean the ones in dat/lua 01:51] We should update those 01:51] I have 01:51] I've also updated the vaults that use it 01:51] Stuff that the users put in their .crawlrc is their problem 01:51] The end-user scripts aren't our problem, yeah. 01:52] I'm also renaming the item library to "items". 01:52] so "items.inventory()" instead of "item.inventory()" 01:52] because trying to use item.inventory() in a vault definition clashes with the dgn.item() specifier 01:53] Okay, I get a crash in Linux build tiles. 01:54] It's roughly identical to the one that rob posted earlier. 01:54] due: Yes, items is better 01:54] * dexap has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:54] * Zaba_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:54] * ChanServ sets mode: +v Zaba_ 01:54] Tiles, huh 01:54] The crashes may not be related 01:55] But good ot fix em 01:55] I've no idea how to fix them :) 01:55] * greensnark attempts a tiles build. 01:55] Every single time 01:55] I have to look up whether it's TILES=y or USE_TILES=y 01:55] We should fix that 01:55] 'cos it's USE_DGAMELAUNCH 01:55] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 01:56] * ogaz has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 01:56] We should just drop the USE_ lameness 01:56] Or alias USE_TILES to TILES, and DGAMELAUNCH to USE_DGAMELAUNCH. 01:56] * scarf|away is now known as scarf 01:56] wb, scarf. 01:56] * due is cold, wraps scarf around neck. 01:57] When in doubt, choose the alternative that's easier to type! 01:57] We can't rename USE_DGAMELAUNCH though, Napking may scream "off wit htheir heads!" 01:57] it's almost 9am now, I may have to go to bed 01:59] clua_check_item does't seem to be used 02:00] i'm ok with it.. just let me know in time 02:00] Napkin: :) 02:00] Ok, I have a pretty backtrace for the tiles crash on Mac 02:01] * greensnark needs scroll lock :P 02:02] * due locks greensnark scrolls up in a tea chest, throws them into the river near Boston. 02:02] http://sprunge.us/HFNN 02:02] by: Looks like flush_prev_message is the culprit 02:02] Oh, interesting 02:02] mine is different 02:03] mine complains about vsprintf a lot 02:03] * Zaba has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:04] It's a stack overflow, so it'll eventually crash badly somewhere 02:04] I've just pasted the frames that led to the death spiral 02:05] ah 02:05] * dexap has joined ##crawl-dev 02:05] I had another look at the foe code this morning, for alligators. I ran away screaming, argh. That is so hideously confusing. 02:06] and someone in ##crawl was complaining that our renaming crocodiles meant that crocodiles were as strong as baby alligators, and that was Wrong. 02:07] I told them to go awya and complain to someone who cared :D 02:07] You were too cruel to the alligators, btw :P 02:07] Why? 02:07] They should be stronger :) 02:07] I debated it. 02:07] @??alligator 02:07] alligator (12t) | Speed: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-108 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(48) | XP: 962 | Sp: swiftness. 02:07] They lose 1v1 with a lowly snapping turtle :) 02:07] They're still pretty buff. 02:07] @??snapping turtle 02:07] snapping turtle (03t) | Speed: 9 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 10 | Health: 30-90 | AC/EV: 16/5 | Damage: 30(reach) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40) | XP: 281. 02:07] You think I should buff them again? 02:08] 35 at least 02:08] Why not give them a nice 15 damage tail slap 02:08] that is an *excellent* idea 02:08] And leave the primary bite at 30 02:08] !fight alligator band v snapping turtle 02:08] Why 80% act? 02:09] We need Varmin in here 02:09] They should be able to beat snapping turtles :) 02:09] Alligator band?! 02:09] Tromboniss? 02:09] Oh, bah, did I commit the 80% act? 02:09] greensnark: Mummy + babies. 02:09] No trombones? 02:09] I feel cheated 02:10] No trombone. 02:10] Maybe the babies could get harmonicas 02:11] They were originally goin gto be speed 9, act 80% like snapping turtles, so you could see the swiftness effect more clearly. 02:11] But that just made them slow and boring. 02:11] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 02:12] * MarvinPA-2 has joined ##crawl-dev 02:15] * scarf|away is now known as scarf 02:16] * paxed has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:19] * scarf has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 02:19] greensnark: Is clua_check_item ever used? 02:21] Don't recall :P 02:21] Most of the item access stuff was written pre-0.1 :P 02:22] Oh really? 02:22] Cool :) 02:22] The giant cockroach misses you. x2 <- that's cool! 02:22] the "x2" i mean 02:23] I know! I love it 02:23] it's not colored in the same way though 02:23] The giant cockroach is pining away without Napkin's society :) 02:23] hehehe 02:23] "The giant cockroach misses you like the deserts miss the rain!" 02:24] :-P 02:24] is using blowgun still throwing skill? 02:24] Yes. 02:25] thanks :) 02:26] * paxed has joined ##crawl-dev 02:27] * MarvinPA has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:27] * MarvinPA-2 is now known as MarvinPA 02:28] Argh. 02:28] greensnark: Around? I have another few questions. 02:28] Search for what [Enter for "stair", or ? for help]? stairs 02:28] Can't find anything matching that. 02:28] Specifically regarding l_food.cc 02:28] should that not give a result? 02:29] * due perfoms testudinal saccrifice summoning ritual. 02:29] Wait, wrong one, that's the dpeg summoning ritual... 02:29] * due checks Book of Devology. 02:29] due: Mention of amusing Mara encounter on SA :P 02:30] http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3155652&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=131#post371467996 02:30] Aweosme! 02:30] And don't tone him down under any crics :) 02:30] *circs 02:30] greensnark: so, food.do_eat(item), will thee standard util_get_userdata(ls, lua_upvalueblahblah work in this instance? 02:31] I thought you were wrapping item_def in a structure 02:31] So you'd fetch the structure and then access the item_def* in it 02:31] hm 02:32] I am basing it on the l_mons stuff. 02:32] Which all use util_get_userdata. 02:32] You can make clua_check_item do all that for you 02:32] Yeah, I have 02:32] LUA_ITEM(item) does it 02:32] But you'r eright 02:32] LUA_ITEM just uses clua_check_item 02:33] I need sometihng like the MAP macro, yes? 02:33] luaL_checkudata(ls, n, DITEM_METATABLE)->mons? 02:33] Er, ->item? 02:33] You just need to fix clua_check_item to unwrap the item_def* 02:33] Yes, you can do that 02:33] Hm 02:34] Okay, that's the easy option 02:34] Okay, now 02:35] checkudata requires a parameter; for item.name(), the item is always parameter one, yes? Or does this need to use the upvalueindex? 02:35] (which is what the monster stuff seems to use) 02:35] oh 02:35] never mind 02:35] Yeah, I undersand completely now. Thanks! 02:37] They only need that because IDEFN pushes the lightuserdata version through. Hooray! 02:37] * dexap has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:41] If you get it wrong, the game will generally give you a gentle reminder by crashing, so it's easy to fix :) 02:42] Yeah :) 02:45] Hm 02:45] greensnark: I've got two metatables, one for DLUA, and one for CLUA... can I safely exchange them both? 02:46] As in, can LUA_ITEM call checkudata(ls, n, ITEM_METATABLE), evne if it's been passed the ditem metatable? 02:46] Or do I need two? 02:46] You cannot mix them 02:46] You can checkudata on the old one and push it back with the new one 02:47] Okay. 02:47] Or if it's in C++, just use the old one to grab the item 02:47] If possible, use just one metatable 02:47] Is it possible? 02:47] Having two will usually cause confusion and regrettable incidents 02:47] Hm 02:47] it should be possible, thanks 02:47] You can use ASSERT_DLUA to keep user scripts from being naughty 02:47] * dexap has joined ##crawl-dev 02:48] So, dump l_ditem, good idea. 02:50] Hm, actually ASSERT_DLUA needs fixing 02:51] hooray 02:51] Or people could macro a key to call a function that asserts, allowing them to reset their level 02:51] Nice. 02:51] Reset level until you get a bazaar :P 02:52] Oh, fine, it just raises a Lua error, no worries 02:52] HAHA 02:52] I thought it did a literal assert 02:52] :P 02:52] Yeah, I as going to say 02:52] * paxed has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 02:52] * dexap is now known as paxed 02:52] Oh hey, I wrote that :P 02:52] How did I forget :P 02:52] My mind is like a sieve 02:53] Or is it colander 02:53] One of them things 02:53] * due drains pasta in greensnark's mind. 02:53] One of them thar things with holes in them 02:55] * syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 02:56] syllogism: Do you get the X crash with the latest code? 02:56] i'll try 02:56] I was not able to repro the X crash 02:57] Me neither. 03:00] no 03:00] greensnark: #define LUA_ITEM(ls, name, n) \ 03:00] item_def **item = *(item_def **) luaL_checkudata(ls, n, ITEM_METATABLE)->item 03:00] that's weird 03:00] What is teh borked? 03:00] Oh, **item 03:01] Hm, still getting void* is not a pointer-to-object type. 03:01] unless someone quietly fixed it :P 03:01] Hooray, there we go. 03:01] compiling crawl from the clean git clone with msvc is not... fun 03:02] felirx: Did you install the submodules etc? 03:02] due: You're casting it to item_def ** 03:02] Shouldn't that be your item wrapper struct 03:02] the submoduls is the problem, first to get SDL to compile I had to update my dxSDK and so on 03:04] there's also nonexisting stuff in the projeckt 03:04] greensnark: It seems to work fine, oddly enough. 03:04] monplace.cc instead of mon-place for instance :( 03:05] felirx: Yuck. 03:05] greensnark: None of us use MSVC is the problem. 03:05] ... felirx, rather. 03:05] And there's been further splits and stuff recently. Go off makefile.obj, if you ca. 03:06] I use msvc pretty much just for the debugger. It's the best one I've found this far for windows 03:06] the make compile works fine naturally 03:06] If you do get the MSCV project working, can you submit a patch to fix it? 03:06] I'll commit it. 03:07] Hey I got a croc in the Lair :P 03:07] :D croc <3 03:07] Pity they're so weak :) 03:07] of zin? lol 03:07] purge: This is the same game :P 03:07] oh hah nice 03:07] get sanctuary yet? 03:08] Of course not :P 03:08] ah thats right your still deciding if your doing a suicide shoals run? 03:08] I'd like to make it to Shoal:5 03:08] Which is not likely at this point, so 03:09] * dexap has joined ##crawl-dev 03:10] * paxed has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 03:10] * dexap is now known as paxed 03:11] greensnark: don't forget to preach to the orcs! 03:11] Don't have recite :P 03:11] * due preaches to the converted. 03:14] does AEVP get rounded down 03:14] Yes 03:14] greensnark: Write-up on the AC changes, plz! <333 03:14] Otherwise I'll post your commit message to the blog. 03:15] casting a l9 spell in a crystal plate is somewhat reasonable then 03:15] with vehumet it's even relatively easy 03:15] Yeah 03:15] if you are a high elf :P 03:15] But GDR is less, so... 03:15] I've really not studied the numbers in depth :) 03:15] yeah but gdr doesn't do anything :P 03:15] I assumed you and dpeg had done the sanity checks :) 03:15] well casting l9 spells in heavy armour still requires grinding 03:16] not like it's an issue 03:16] If things need fixing, let me know :) 03:16] I've never played a heavy armour caster 03:16] due: I'm just the code monkey on that change :) 03:16] Hm. 03:16] Maybe syllogism can do a write-up! 03:16] You should get dpeg or syllogism or DrPraetor, yeah 03:17] no :P 03:17] syllogism it is! 03:17] due will send you delicious turtle soup 03:17] With chunks of roast alligator 03:17] Roasted with pepper 03:19] greensnark: Will you be able to sanity check this commit before I make it? 03:19] syllogism: Did you see the post by the person who got Mara who summoned an illusion that blew up Mara with IOOD? :P 03:19] due: Sure 03:19] I'm sure I'll have missed something or borken it. 03:20] hah, no 03:20] SA 03:20] http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3155652&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=131#post371467996 03:21] I wonder how much damage ghost OODs are doing :P 03:22] I haven't been able to get monsters to cast it :P 03:22] I guess they cast it only at the player? 03:22] http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/a-tablet-to-cure-the-apple-fanboys-anxiety-20100122-mqpd.html 03:22] This is hilarous. 03:22] I just honestly hope Apple don't release a table, just so I can point, and laugh. 03:22] also, wrong channel, sorry. 03:25] * purge has quit IRC (".") 03:28] * st has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 03:29] * st has joined ##crawl-dev 03:29] * st has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 03:29] * st_ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:43] due: You know what we need 03:43] We need to allow the Lernaean hydra to knock down trees <3 03:43] ... That is an excellent idea. 03:45] Isn't that power creep, though? 03:46] Anyway, we need a Lua trap where a boulder beetle drops from the ceiling. 03:47] It's not power creep 03:47] Lernaean hydra is useless :P 03:47] It should be awe inspiring! 03:47] Instead its only trick is having 30 HD so it shrugs off sticky flame really quick :P 03:48] 03greensnark * r019904d2483f 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Allow hand-and-half bonus even if the player qualifies for aux unarmed rounds (affects only minimum attack speed). 03:52] greensnark: I think I'm done with items. Can I send you the patch? I'm sure I'v emissed something, but I don't knkow what. 03:52] Sure 03:53] Or I could psprunge. 03:54] http://sprunge.us/dOfX 03:54] back 03:54] wb! 03:55] due: push_item pushes an ItemWrap 03:55] So clua_check_item should retrieve the ItemWrap, not an item_def directly 03:56] hm 03:56] so ItemWrap()blah blah? 03:56] It should probably check that the item is valid as well, come to think of it. 03:57] Is ItemWrap really neccessary? 03:58] #define LUA_ITEM(ls, name, n) \ 03:58] item_def *item = clua_get_userdata(ls, ITEM_METATABLE, n)->item 03:58] ah 03:58] ItemWrap is not necessary unless you want to add additional properties at some point 03:58] MonsterWrap tracks the turn number that the monster info is valid 03:58] which we might eventually 03:58] So that user scripts cannot hang on to the monster, and query it for position after it wanders out of LOS 03:59] Right-o. 04:04] 03by * r6f76b8ac1f53 10/crawl-ref/source/ (libw32c.cc tilesdl.cc): Don't call flush_prev_message in c_getch in tiles or w32. 04:04] Hm, fell through a shaft and didn't get a milestone. 04:04] Only fell one level, though. 04:04] due: how deep? it only reports >1 level difference 04:05] ah 04:05] I'd like to know whether this fixes (some of) the windows crashes 04:07] I can update the CDO builds, but I don't have access to the windows PC any more 04:07] greensnark? 04:09] Okay, item_wrap gone. 04:11] I can check on Windows 04:14] Woohoo, segfault! 04:15] Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 04:15] 0xb7f096d9 in std::string::empty () from /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6 04:15] Anyone got any ideas o nwhat that means? 04:16] i don't crash using X now 04:16] due: show us a backtrace 04:16] Mu_: yay 04:16] ah, now It's in memcpy. 04:17] greensnark: http://pastebin.ca/1763820 04:18] Looks like you're not retrieving or pushing the item correctly 04:18] So it's essentially fetching an arbitrary blob of memory and trying to treat it like an item 04:18] And crashing because it isn't 04:18] Hm. 04:19] Check that you're pushing the item correctly and retrieving it in the same way 04:19] Which is odd, because when it works, it's using ItemWrap and doing a straight conversion. 04:19] Oh. 04:20] clua_new_userdata< item_def >(ls, ITEM_METATABLE); doesn't actually push the item. 04:20] Duh. 04:20] by: tutorial is fine in Windows now 04:21] You shouldn't be directly pushing item_defs 04:21] You should be pushing item_def* 04:21] If you push item_def, you'll run into issues with C++ constructors not being run 04:21] And general crashiness 04:22] Yeah. 04:22] I'm just converting it. 04:23] Okay, that makes more sense now. 04:23] Why on earth does the Lernaean hydra lose the "the" :/ 04:23] It seems to be defined much the same way as the royal jelly 04:25] greensnark: http://sprunge.us/bALF 04:25] greensnark: Does that work correctly? 04:25] due: Yes, that looks right 04:26] Excellent; you didn't see any other issues? 04:27] Looks fine 04:27] From a brief glance :) 04:27] Hooray 04:27] * due commits further breakage. 04:28] I think I actually understand how a lot of this works. 04:32] okay, now we have an item library that is fun to use, hooray! 04:48] greensnark, Mu_: thanks for checking! 04:48] 03greensnark * r6f65497b7f71 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files in 2 dirs): The Lernaean hydra can now knock down trees, and is SIZE_HUGE. 04:48] * greensnark laughs demonically. 04:48] Next time someone tries hiding behind a clump of trees, they're so going to get what's coming to them 04:49] ... 04:49] I love you. 04:52] while compiling SDL for crawl from msvc, directX support is enabled. While compiling with mingw32, directX support is disabled. Is this wanted behaviour? 04:53] It might not be intentional 04:53] I guess neunon or Napkin might know 04:56] mainly if the dx support is compiled in, it pretty much means if you want to compile crawl with msvc you need to get dxSDK which is a 500meg+ download 04:57] 500M?! 04:57] I'd disable it, then. 04:57] Wow 04:57] Does the DX support make it faster? 04:57] I doubt 04:58] Yeah, disable. 05:03] could someone check that to make sure? 05:04] and what about the official sdl.dlls - do they have directx support enabled? 05:04] Okay, gonna push this 05:04] maybe the c.d.o windows builds could be updated? 05:05] by: Will do so shortly 05:06] Hm 05:06] Okay, this commit broke the stash tracker 05:06] thanks! 05:06] Or at least, the recent annotations changes 05:06] greensnark: Any idea how to fiix that? 05:06] of course you can cheat and use prebuild libsdl and .dll from libsdl.org mm 05:07] ^Fartefact no longer works. 05:07] (while standing near an artefact cloak on V:80 05:07] Commit the change, we'll fix the damage 05:07] Easier than schlepping patches around :) 05:07] :D 05:08] Pushed. 05:08] 03due * rd15f7f13d9e7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (13 files in 4 dirs): Convert items Lua library to use metatable. May case end-user issues. 05:08] ^ 05:08] May case end users, eh :P 05:08] ARGH. 05:08] Oh well. 05:09] Oh, alligator timidity. Any ideas wher eI should look in mon-behv? 05:09] handle_behaviour function probably 05:10] Maybe I'll jsut leave that to someone who has a chance of making it work :) 05:10] I'll take a look real soon now 05:11] mons_flattens_trees <3333333 05:11] Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to come across like I was pestering you 05:12] Ah, the stash tracker was pushing the item as userdata 05:12] *light userdata 05:12] Ahh 05:13] It doesn't use push_item or anything like that, which is probably why my grep missed it. 05:13] I get wails of despair from stash.lua when I start up a game :P 05:13] Right, it uses callfn with 'u' as the parameter type 05:13] Which just pushes light userdata 05:14] What's the exclusive item thing for, anyway? 05:14] * greensnark bellows with rage at morons who let their car alarms go off in the basement. 05:14] yaksnark? 05:14] greenyak? 05:16] even if I use prebuilt win32 sdl dll, tilegen wants to be linked to dxguid.lib 05:16] I must admit, I think crocodiles ar emore cool than giant lizards. 05:17] The exclusive items thing was protection against end-users 05:17] Ah 05:17] The item properties functions would return nil if called on any other item 05:17] Any item other than the bound exclusive item 05:17] Ahh, okay. 05:17] But most of those checks have fallen by the wayside :P 05:17] Which isn't necessary now, right? 05:18] Well, it could be abused 05:18] Ah. 05:18] How do we prevent this, then? 05:18] You can hang on to an item ref 05:18] In scripts 05:18] And when you move across levels it'll become a different item on that level 05:18] how to continue debugging after evaluating an expression in gdb caused a signal? 05:18] Etc. 05:18] Hm. 05:18] In which case, we should probably do the same turn thing as with monsters, right? 05:19] by: c? 05:19] or "continue" 05:19] Well, for now I'm not going to worry about this 05:19] Okay 05:19] it keeps trying to continue evaluating that expression... 05:20] We may eventually have to disable Lua accessible to end users 05:20] There are too many potential isues 05:20] ah. 05:20] Sounds like fun. 05:21] I must admit, I love the new lair so much. 05:21] greensnark: I'd suggest to not share libraries/objects between clua and dlua 05:21] well, just in the one direction 05:22] like l_moninf.cc (which I did because I thought l_mons wasn't user accessible) 05:25] by: The problem is that every user-visible API is potentiall problematic and must be carefully evaluated 05:25] And we don't have the kind of time and energy to devote to that 05:25] Even with the current user API, I'm sure there are dozens of ways to abuse it on public servers 05:25] argh, tutorial messes with Options.clear_messages after a number of messages have already been printed (debug at least) 05:26] Lua that's used by developers is perfectly okay, because we know there's no malicious code 05:26] Oh hey, cool, I got my swamp entry! 05:26] Yay! 05:26] @whereis bookofjude 05:26] bookofjude the Nimble (L12 SpBe), a worshipper of Trog, is currently on Lair:2 after 16613 turns. 05:26] I'd love to have enough information exported through safe Lua libraries to be able to do the interface in client Lua 05:26] Maybe you'll get your Swamp:$ level as well 05:27] by: That was my original intent, as well, but it's Hard :) 05:27] greensnark: Isn't it pretty? 05:27] Something as simple as allowing Lua to access items 05:27] greensnark: Also, I have three Swamp ends to my name. 05:27] Unless you copy the item, the user could hang on to the item pointer and query it after they go offlevel 05:27] The most of anyone. 05:27] Or after dropping the item 05:27] greensnark: re abuse, are you thinking of cheating, or something worse? 05:28] by: Mainly cheating 05:28] Crashiness is possible, but I can't offhand think of how it could be used to run malicious code 05:28] *malicious native code 05:28] Oh, this is odd 05:28] However, I am not a black hat :P 05:29] I think lair shouldn't use city_level 05:29] Or maybe very rarely. 05:29] by: It'd be much easier if only the server admin or users playing local Crawl could edit Lua 05:29] That way, if someone comes up with an awesome new UI using Lua, we can include it with the game 05:29] Or they could persuade the server admin to put it on the server 05:30] Like .des files, actually 05:30] But either way, it's a complex story :) 05:30] oh holy craap 05:31] Too many shafts, that needs to be looked at for 0.6 05:31] I think an approach like what l_moninf does should be ok -- not saying it can't be exploited right now, but it's meant to not hand out a reference to the monster, but an info object rendered from the monster 05:32] by: Yes, that's much safer 05:32] A table with the properties involved 05:32] Or a copied item 05:32] It's a good idea. 05:32] But if you want to modify items, you must separate the APIs 05:34] Which is a pain. 05:34] Is there any Lua that relies on modifyin items? 05:35] We can just copy the item 05:35] are annotations store in the item? 05:35] Yes 05:36] client lua should probably only have access to items in the inventory 05:36] But that's dlua anyway, isn't it? 05:37] Items in inventory and floor items visible to player 05:37] due: Is there any code that wants to modify items? 05:37] Lua, I mean 05:37] User-lua wise? 05:37] No 05:37] dlua-wise/ 05:37] User Lua cannot atm 05:37] Yes 05:38] Some vaults destroy items 05:38] the trove entries will either destroy or decrement the quantity of items 05:38] Hm 05:38] That's why I debated splitting the item-manipulation code out into a separate library. 05:39] We may yet have to do that 05:41] I'll probably end up adding more functions to l_items to finish off troves. 05:41] Or at least to make it sane. 05:42] But troves are mostly done apart from the stash search to actually decide on an option. 05:42] So our only problem is controlling how user scripts access items 05:42] I think we should just attach turn count to the item wrapper 05:42] And disallow access if there's a turn count mismatch 05:42] That's easily done. 05:42] That seems the simplest 05:42] only if it's clua, though? 05:42] Yes, only if it's clua 05:43] Sounds good. 05:43] You doing it? 05:43] I've still got the ItemWrap code hanging around. 05:43] Yes, will do 05:43] Oh 05:43] Hm, maybe I don't 05:43] I should be asleep anyway :0 05:43] No worries, it's easy :) 05:44] hooray 05:44] I'll update CDO and the binaries when we're done 05:47] You know 05:47] Every time i run into maud, I have half a mind to implement Entarex. 05:47] she should pacify if you drpo the sword, and should immediately pick it up! 05:51] God acquirement is still broken 05:51] I've kept the sling Trog gave me four gifts ago 05:51] my last two gifts were a sling and a crossbow 05:54] 03by * r8d1597fae9ff 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Fix explosion drawing with messages_at_top. 06:00] http://pastebin.com/d7cfa19e4 06:01] Yuck. 06:01] by might be the person to ask about the stuff. 06:02] <3 nonstandard function definitions by compilers 06:03] not really, I always get the C library headers wrong myself and don't know about visual studio 06:03] mainly, MSVC does not implement round() 06:03] it's a gcc own addition 06:05] cool 06:07] well no, round() is posix 06:07] and also c99 06:07] ;-) 06:07] 03by * rba8c91386a23 10/crawl-ref/source/ (coord-circle.cc dgn-shoals.cc): Disambiguate uses of sqrt by casting to double. 06:07] that should fix the first errors 06:07] * hotsun has joined ##crawl-dev 06:08] oh jesus christ 06:08] Zaba_: >:| 06:08] gotta love the error message: error C2668 06:08] due, me? 06:08] Napkin: aargh, let's stab Zaba_. 06:08] Zaba_: ant nest. 06:08] I didn't do nuthin! 06:08] oh. 06:08] lol 06:08] yes, I reckon it's partly my fault, but it was dpeg's idea! 06:09] At least they're not rpois. 06:09] well okay, it *was* my idea, but he approved it 06:09] no, they're good vaults 06:09] just ants are scary 06:09] mmm maybe msvc2008 has applied some modern conventions 06:09] hey Eifel :) 06:10] * Eifel defines Napkin=="error C2668" 06:10] Zaba_: will you do the missing "round"? 06:10] Howdy! :D 06:10] "divide by napkin" error? 06:11] what should be done about it? 06:11] :-P 06:11] my lair, it is infested with ants 06:11] YAY 06:11] I GOT SHOALS 06:12] Should I try it early? 06:12] of course. but get a second opinion from greensnark 06:12] greensnark: In shoals! 06:12] Zaba_: I don't know :) 06:13] by, personally I'd wait for msvc to catch up with modern standards.. but that's not a very appropriate action in the current situation. 06:13] there's msvc.h; should we just put an inline implementation of round in there? 06:13] http://www.codecogs.com/reference/c/math.h/round.php <- very bottom 06:14] "Simple though to replicate with the floor command, i.e. round(x) == floor(x+0.5)." 06:14] there's pretty much 2 solutions 06:14] either make inline implementation, or just nuke msvc support 06:14] * due supports the latter. ;) 06:14] floor(a+0.5); is close enough to it, just as per the link Napkin pasted 06:15] + inline int round(double d) { 06:15] + return (d>0) ? int(d+0.5) : int(d-0.5); 06:15] + } 06:15] works with negative and positive 06:15] floor a+0.5 fails with negative a 06:21] * hotsun has quit IRC (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Now with extra fish!") 06:25] due: By all means do it early if you like to splat :P 06:25] greensnark: Well, I killed Mara, Francis and Duane at XL... 13! 06:25] Mara = three berserk iron trolls. 06:26] Francis and Duane are amateurs :P 06:26] They might as well have been painted on the backdrop :P 06:26] But congrats on offing Mara :P 06:26] I would like to point out that being in loco parentis to Mara, it might have been more graceful to die to him than to kill him 06:27] 03greensnark * r73905f957c3a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (clua.cc cluautil.h l_item.cc l_libs.h l_mons.cc stash.cc): Fix stash-tracker item annotations and restrict user scripts to access items only on the same turn the items were wrapped for Lua by the core C++ code. 06:30] <3 06:30] Oh, alligators need tail slapping 06:31] 03greensnark * r2be18d1431c3 10/crawl-ref/source/clua.cc: Throw a Lua error instead of killing Crawl if a Lua state does not have a known matching clua (this can happen when coroutines are involved). 06:32] Ran out of food. 06:33] Also, harpy food theft is annoying. 06:33] As in, infuritating and grinding annoying, to the point of it being saner to leaveone's food outside of Shoals and go back for it when hungry. 06:33] :/ 06:33] You have to bring that up with dpeg :/ 06:33] He and jpeg worked on harpies 06:34] I agree that their hitpoint attack is more interesting than the food attack 06:35] It's a cool ide.a 06:35] "The harpy feasts on your liver" 06:35] *critical hit* 06:35] Heh 06:35] * Timbermaw has joined ##crawl-dev 06:35] It's especially annoying on my current char, because SpBe are food-scary. 06:35] "The harpy devours your kidneys!" 06:36] 03due * r6b0ad0f051fa 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Give (adult) alligators tail-slap attacks. 06:37] Barely legal alligators? 06:37] :) 06:37] I knew someone was going to comment on that. 06:37] But I didn't want people to go "oh oh but how can a baby alligator tail slap you?". 06:38] Okay, will update the CDO builds, then sleep. 06:39] Alligators should be a lot stronger if they're going to behave polite until poked :P 06:39] How big is their tail slap 06:39] * greensnark checks. 06:39] 15 06:40] and they can get a further buff 06:40] @??alligator 06:40] alligator (12t) | Speed: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-108 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(48) | XP: 962 | Sp: swiftness. 06:40] @??alligator snapping turtle 06:40] alligator snapping turtle (09t) | Speed: 8 (swim: 60%) | HD: 16 | Health: 112-176 | AC/EV: 19/1 | Damage: 50(reach) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(64) | XP: 1125. 06:40] Might go 40, 20 instead. :> 06:40] That would make them scary :) 06:40] Which is good :) 06:40] :D 06:41] How common are they? 06:41] One or two per Swamp level 06:41] Sounds fine 06:41] Yeah 06:41] I had them near the bottom of the list 06:41] I got one in the entire Swamp 06:41] This was bad. 06:42] It's not too bad to have the occasional rare monster, but Swamp doesn't have major threats apart from hydras 06:42] So it's good to mix it up a little 06:42] Swamp is relatively boring, yes. 06:42] I left alligator snapping turtles quite rare for SHoals 06:42] Well, they have harpies and cool merfolk and stuff. 06:42] Because Shoals has a bunch of strong monsters 06:42] Yes 06:42] I still want poison dart frogs. 06:49] Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2658-g6b0ad0f (16.2) 06:50] * greensnark hands due a cookie. 06:51] I just press the "update" button, basicaally :) 06:51] Napkin did all the hard work! <3 06:51] * greensnark hands Napkin a cookie too. 06:52] @??crocodile 06:52] crocodile (07t) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 20 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 104. 06:53] New amphibious giant lizard. 06:53] people who make monsters look like pre-0.4 will have problems with all this new stuff. 06:54] We should remove those scripts 06:54] They've had long enough to adjust 06:54] * due needs to update the 052_monster_glyphs file. 06:54] but cbus will do miscast effects on us for that 06:54] No 06:54] He just pretends to be a Luddite 06:55] Or we can update the glyphs :P 06:55] I'll update 'em. 06:55] I'm running the new stuff 06:55] but they are still inferior to the old 06:55] ... :o!!!?? 06:56] Wow :o 06:56] fix the bug with clearing the back log with the clear delay thingie 06:56] cbus, what bug is that? 06:56] Back log clearing? 06:56] the log in ^P is cleared 06:56] You can hit < to get less. 06:57] and you have to scroll up with <> (didn't you used to be able to use 8 and 2 on the numpad?) 06:57] I want more 06:57] not less 07:01] Okay, goodnight folk 07:01] greensnark: I look forward to not splatting in Shoals tomorrow :) 07:02] btw 07:02] Where's the fun in not splatting :P 07:02] how about adding more weapons to the staves class? 07:02] (there are only 2 normal types) 07:03] * Vandal has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:03] greensnark: I intend to ascend this SpBe. 07:03] !lg * char=SpBe s=name 07:03] 563 games for * (char=SpBe): 72x bookofjude, 66x Arival, 40x Daphnia, 34x Jaeger, 29x KiloByte, 25x ghia, 22x crepe, 20x IanKeith, 17x Ahrin, 17x Lactose, 15x Pineapple, 14x violetj, 12x splat, 11x NightMan, 11x Mayhem, 11x wasp, 9x josh, 8x CatEater, 5x stoc, 5x Siber, 5x Frosteey, 4x Iodinin, 4x Leissi, 3x renegade44, 3x puffycloud, 3x Phantom, 2x IronRobin, 2x Amadi, 2x 78291, 2x sorear, 2x Cho... 07:03] 72 and no wins. :( 07:06] 03by * r9a9a26857f6b 10/crawl-ref/source/tutorial.cc: Clear messages before the tutorial messes with options. 07:06] You might want to be careful in the Shoals, in that case :) 07:07] It is delightfully dangerous at low levels :) 07:07] Yeah, I already left :0 07:07] // Although it's unfortunate to not be able to validate subvaults except a 07:07] // run-time, this allows subvaults to reference maps by tag that may not 07:07] // have been loaded yet. 07:07] That's not the same as the valudate prelude, right? 07:07] No 07:08] Didn't think so. 07:09] :O 07:10] Okay, and the windows builds are update. 07:11] are DS bugged? 07:11] I'm at XP:5 and still no mutation 07:12] That's me off, bye! 07:12] Nighty night 07:13] g'night due! 07:13] Ok, how to say "Bahnhof?!" in english? 07:13] git log 29850c7c4740a6537 07:13] Bahnhof? 07:14] Train station? 07:14] could someone wrap the info about AC/EV in some non-math statements? 07:14] What do trains have to do with Ac/EV? :) 07:14] Oh 07:14] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nur_Bahnhof_verstehen 07:15] exactly ;) 07:15] I love idioms. <3 07:15] I love how a train station iis involved in the German for "It's all greek to me". 07:15] (Though if you're looking at Greek text, you have to say "It's all Coptic to me".) 07:15] Goodnight for real! 07:15] hehe 07:15] g'night :) 07:18] and why is my precious broad axe so much worse than a katana now? :( 07:19] Because katanas are going to be removed :P 07:20] 14/-2/16 compared to 14/3/12! that's extreme! 07:20] lol? 07:20] It's not 07:20] Broad axes are common as dirt 07:20] Katanas are 1 in 10 games 07:21] And they're probably going to be removed, as I said :P 07:21] ... ok 07:21] I have no interest in cookie cutter weapon classes that are all alike, anyway 07:21] And vanishingly small interest in making axes stronger :P 07:22] i should just stop reading changelogs? 07:22] Why? 07:23] * Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 07:23] because I don't know what it's about anyways 07:24] There were lots of links to the AC/EV changes floating around 07:25] The commit just implements what is described on the wiki page 07:30] what's the problem with axes? 07:30] too many people use them? 07:32] ... 07:32] There is no problem with axes 07:33] see - that's why I should be strictly forbidden from reading changelogs ;) 07:33] I'm sorry 07:34] I have to be a registered nick to join ##crawl but not this one? 07:34] Vandal: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 07:34] !messages 07:34] (1/1) dpeg said (1w 1d 17h 32m 59s ago): If you're still up to adding more descriptions (please do!), then the new CDO feature might help you a bit. 07:34] new CDO feature? 07:41] I'd guess dpeg refers to the knowledge bots? 07:41] 1s 07:44] Vandal: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?page_id=214 07:44] Here I assume "descriptions" meant monster descriptions. :) 07:44] 03by * rce1dfc7b2b42 10/crawl-ref/source/msvc.h: Provide an implementation of round() for MSVC. 07:45] felirx: could you check if it compiles now? 07:47] !tell dpeg it's just not healthy that I get so worked up because of usability fails in nethack and I blame YOU partly on that! ;-} 07:47] bhaak: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 07:47] Yay, a new playtesting blog entry! 07:50] it's not finding the new round function 07:51] 03j-p-e-g 07direction-rewrite * re4e5e02a4864 10/crawl-ref/source/files.cc: Don't attempt to unpack non-existing .tdl files. 07:51] 03j-p-e-g 07direction-rewrite * rf050211e9bb0 10/crawl-ref/source/ouch.cc: Fix .tdl files not being unlinked on character death. 07:51] 03j-p-e-g 07direction-rewrite * r11eab33e6c37 10/crawl-ref/source/ (11 files): Merge branch 'direction-rewrite' of ssh://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref into direction-rewrite 07:51] 03j-p-e-g 07direction-rewrite * r48b44ea901c9 10/crawl-ref/source/files.cc: Revert check for .tdl files, doesn't work. 07:54] 03j-p-e-g * r0f881e00c471 10/crawl-ref/source/ouch.cc: Unlink .tdl (tile doll file) upon character death. 07:54] 03j-p-e-g * r5e625c350da4 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-mon/ (angel.png unique/menkaure.png): Remove dangling transparent pixels from angel and Menkaure tiles. 08:06] * Vandal|PC has joined ##crawl-dev 08:06] * Vandal has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer) 08:10] * Vandal|PC has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:10] * Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev 08:14] felirx: hmm, seems msvc.h is not the right place :( 08:17] I think it's the precompiled headers 08:17] working on it 08:18] you forgot to include or for ceil / floor btw 08:35] this is such a prety spam of funny errors : http://pastebin.com/d4507f24e 08:43] Hey! I was wondering if anyone would welcome a power-axe-mod? 08:47] Message history doesn't break long messages into shorter sections (g5e625c3) (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=542) by jpeg 08:48] Also I would like a mod where all spells (except scrolls & wands) are disabled 08:50] 03j-p-e-g * r65d3a42293bb 10/crawl-ref/source/libutil.cc: Fix "stairs" not being pluralised correctly. 08:53] Because it allways anoys me that a Fighter char get spellcasting by reading scrolls 08:54] dude, it's ten experience 08:54] or something 08:54] basically none 08:58] * jannesep has joined ##crawl-dev 08:59] * jannesep has left ##crawl-dev 09:01] * Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 09:02] Mornin everyone 09:02] Cryp71c: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 09:03] Morning Cryp71c :) 09:06] I think I broke it :( 09:06] unresolved external symbol class std::basic_string ... 09:07] Eifel: what's a power axe mod? 09:08] Timbermaw: simply removed spellcasting + boosting axes 09:09] "because somehow, axes weren't already good enough" 09:13] Because 1,5H axe got devaluated 09:13] possibly because it was suspciously too good 09:14] i think basically it's: if you want to patch your local version, go nuts 09:14] but neither of those suggestions is likely to make it in ;) 09:16] Yeah... I know, because a pure melee char would be too good 09:18] * Eifel still looking for that ironic tags 09:18] Cryp71c: check the message dude, you're killing me 09:20] TGWi: curiosity killed the cat 09:20] I doubt the message is loaded with anthrax 09:20] So you're alleging Cryp71c is a cat now 09:21] sounds more like I'm the cat 09:22] errr yeah ^ xD 09:22] Cats are good. 09:24] I've a feeling getting this to compile is more trouble than it's worth 09:25] * by has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 09:36] * by has joined ##crawl-dev 09:36] * ChanServ sets mode: +v by 09:37] * Enne has joined ##crawl-dev 09:37] * ChanServ sets mode: +v Enne 09:38] * kloeri__ has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:38] * kloeri_ has joined ##crawl-dev 09:42] More realistic movement/viewing/shooting. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=543) by Eifeltrampel 09:46] ..but that's less realistic 09:46] * Scrubber has joined ##crawl-dev 09:46] No 09:48] Ignoring Pythagoras should be more realistic then??? 09:49] TGWi, wha? I already checked them :P 09:49] other channel? 09:49] gah 09:49] And morning Keskitalo, just got back from a brief afk 09:49] TGWi, lol no..Private msg to henzell 09:50] keep it from cluttering up either crawl channel 09:50] lame 09:50] :P 09:50] Hey Napkin, congrats on the win! 09:51] Thanks, Eino :) 09:51] mhm Eifel's idea is good i'd say. needs to be balanced ofc 09:52] actually, no, it's quite an awful idea, it's like the game world is actually made up of letters and symbols with the proportions they have in most fonts 09:52] "solution looking for a problem" 09:53] making range circular would be nice, but I wouldn't want to change movement geometry 09:53] it doesn't need to be balanced, gods, no, because if it was getting balanced it'd mean somebody's putting effort into it. 09:53] by, but it already is circular.. 09:54] rofl 09:54] 03Enne 07tileswater * rf171c0fe0293 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tilebuf.cc tilebuf.h): Try to fix tiles water by using a new alpha func. 09:54] Zaba_: not really 09:55] if implementing this feature meant that moving diagonally took 1.4 time units and moving horizontally took 1, then i vote the feature be taken out back, shot, and buried in the yard 09:55] well, it's the closet approximation of a circle one can get without reducing the whole mess to ascii art 09:56] Zaba_: oh, I meant spell range, not LOS range 09:56] Zaba_: ya, spell targetting is quite square-ish 09:57] well, I believe it has reasons to be so 09:57] and we're back to "this is a solution looking for a problem" 09:57] I thought you were tryiing to nit-pick with definitions of "circular" and the actual movement "metric" 09:57] "it's not realistic" != "a problem" 09:57] lorimer: the problem is that you can safely shoot oklobs from outside LOS along diagonals with range >= 6 or so spells 09:58] it's also a bit questionable how spells like sticky flame or dispel undead (almost?) got to LOS edge along diagonals 09:58] by: then perhaps just reduce spell range to fit LoS? or is that already in trunk? i thought i saw something go by about that recently 09:58] actually, I think I either horrinly misunderstood that feature request, or it's truly horrible. 09:59] the idea to make beam distance calculations euclidean isn't new, and the main counter-argument so far has been that the beam code works differently 09:59] Is -MR an artefact property? 10:00] a beam just travels one cell at a time, decrementing the remaining range, so it's kind of tied to the "roguelike metric" 10:00] is the justification behind rectangular range of spells is that the number of tiles a beam crosses is the same in diagonals and non-diagonals? 10:01] Zaba_: it's mostly an implementation thing, not a design choice I believe 10:02] but the LOS code measures distance differently? 10:03] yes, that uses euclidean distance 10:05] hm, indeed, having two systems of distance around isn't very nice.. 10:05] * eith has joined ##crawl-dev 10:06] oh boy this again 10:08] * ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 10:13] Hehe, the AC/EV redo crapped my current chars casting chances in this elven ring mail.. 10:13] I imagine it hit elven armour hard 10:18] are elven armor any different than regular armor now? 10:18] they probably don't train armour skill at all 10:19] :S that's the only difference? 10:26] they're lighter 10:26] unless that changed for some reason 10:27] Hmm, did it really impact leven armor that much? That seems off; I already had enough issue with how drastic the strength check hit for any -5EV armor, but elven armors aren't even at that high of a penalty 10:28] ??elven ring mail 10:28] I don't have a page labeled elven_ring_mail in my learndb. 10:28] ??elven armour 10:28] elven items[1/2]: Elven armour impedes spellcasting less than other armour, especially if you are an elf. It also always counts as "light" armour, even if metallic, so you can't use it to train your Armour skill and you don't get the heavy-armour damage reduction guarantee. Elven cloaks and boots also boost stealth. 10:28] ??elven armour[2] 10:28] I don't have a page labeled elven_armour[2] in my learndb. 10:28] hmm; don't elven mails have the same AC and -EV as their plain counterparts? 10:31] by, yes they do. 10:32] * Eifel has left ##crawl-dev 10:32] i believe they have the same listing but a smaller effective EV penalty by half a point or so 10:33] since when do we have alligators? 10:33] yesterday? 10:34] 03greensnark * r5dcf04fdaa2c 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-cast.cc: Armour/shield spellcasting penalty should not be negative (i.e. never a bonus). 10:37] greensnark: lame 10:37] When a MiEE starts with Sandblast at Fucking Awesome, doubts begin to creep in :P 10:38] (that should be one of the spellcasting success levels btw) 10:39] hehe 10:39] 120% success 10:40] cast it twice 20% of hte time 10:40] or cast it randomly each fifth turn 10:40] Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2663-g5dcf04f (16.2) 10:41] * ogaz_ has joined ##crawl-dev 10:41] * ogaz has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 10:41] * ogaz_ is now known as ogaz 10:41] heh - A Goblin just came _down_ the stairs in D1! 10:42] I thought there's peace up there! 10:42] Goblins are very peacefl 10:42] After you hit them once or twice 10:43] that one shouted at me first :-P 10:43] "Hey, I wish to be at peace! Can you help me?" 10:43] *THUNK* "Done" 11:03] ego/randart armour set: banded, splint, plate. tiles (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=544) by Porkchop 11:12] 03j-p-e-g * rcf2d864238ec 10/crawl-ref/source/ (main.cc xom.cc): Fix gates not being handled correctly in Xom's "change scenery" act. 11:20] Blork the orc (a +6,+2 glaive of reaching) on D:4 plus wand of paralyze? 11:20] msvc is doing my head in 11:20] *sigh* 11:20] the project seems to be somehow linking libcmt twice with different versions 11:21] * dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 11:21] * ChanServ sets mode: +o dpeg 11:21] cheers 11:21] dpeg: You have 6 messages. Use !messages to read them. 11:21] six of them 11:21] greensnark: many, many thanks! 11:21] !messages 11:21] (1/6) greensnark said (2d 35m 33s ago): I don't think it's necessary to randomise the OOD ramps. I don't see any exploitable mechanic there; randomising will just make players exit the level at the lower end of the random range. 11:21] !messages 11:21] (1/5) Cryp71c said (1d 14h 24m 25s ago): Not sure what's already being worked on (by Haran or others), but "Trim down monster descriptions" and "Highlighting important events" ideas. 11:21] * by has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 11:22] * by_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:22] * ChanServ sets mode: +v by_ 11:22] dpeg: Happy to help :) 11:22] by_, kilobyte: I'd like to take Che to email, is that okay? 11:22] * by_ is now known as by 11:22] sure 11:22] !messages 11:22] (1/4) greensnark said (23h 36m 6s ago): I'm skipping Armour/Dodging/Stealth training changes for now, since there's no consensus there. 11:22] greensnark: not even no concensus, that is also no plan! 11:22] *there 11:23] :) 11:23] I tried to write commit messages that would allow replies, but nobody seemed interested :) 11:23] by: on Che? 11:23] yes 11:23] although I think we should change Armour and Dodging training 11:23] by: yes, I am lagging. Lots to do... this is why I want to sort Cheibriados out by email. 11:24] dpeg: Also, could you review th stat changes to 1.5 hander weapons? 11:24] * Kil2 has joined ##crawl-dev 11:24] no, I can't 11:24] :D 11:24] I have no clue. 11:24] !messages 11:24] (1/3) greensnark said (23h 37m 44s ago): This means we still have the heavy/light distinction for skill training porpoises. 11:24] Yes, I will come up with a proposal for Armour/dodging training. 11:24] I take it that Stealth training does not rely on light/heavy? 11:24] We're training porpoises? 11:24] dpeg: It does 11:25] ouch 11:25] dpeg: don't worry, wasn't really expecting reply 11:25] greensnark: okay, so will think about a way that uses AEVP or perhaps EVP only 11:25] !messages 11:25] (1/2) by said (20h 45m 38s ago): Prayer for piety-safe changing is in now; prayer still needs some effects to discourage the same old abuse during perma-prayer. 11:25] ogaz: Attack porpoises wielding shields on their, er, fins 11:25] !messages 11:25] (1/1) bhaak said (3h 38m 37s ago): it's just not healthy that I get so worked up because of usability fails in nethack and I blame YOU partly on that! ;-} 11:25] * pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 11:25] * ChanServ sets mode: +v pointless_ 11:26] !tell bhaak You are always welcome over here :) 11:26] dpeg: OK, I'll let bhaak know. 11:26] okay, dinner, see you later! 11:26] bhaak had a little discussion with Pat Rankin :) 11:26] Awesome battling blink frogs and even giant toads on the new Lair:1. I'm really needing the wandering mushrooms and oklobs.. and I find myself moving around differently than usual. 11:27] Lots of plants in the Shoals too :P 11:27] * greensnark eyes Keskitalo hopefully. 11:27] Hee. Let's see if I can make it. :) 11:28] These rat packs still aren't fun. :P 11:32] * firem0nkey has joined ##crawl-dev 11:32] what's up with ##crawl being locked? 11:32] * firem0nkey has left ##crawl-dev 11:33] Well I could have answered that if I spent all my time staring at the channel and also typed lightning fast. :) 11:33] Except that I don't know the answer, of course. 11:34] Keskitalo: The freenode javascript spam attacks 11:34] maybe circular spell ranges are the wrong answer 11:34] I don't know whether they're still ongoing, but there was some badness yesterday 11:34] Okay. 11:34] has anyone thought about rectangular LOS? 11:35] TGWi: ugly 11:35] :P 11:35] Rectangular LOS is the obvious answer if it weren't ugly :) 11:35] It's not really a rectangle in Crawl geometry, after all 11:35] It's a circle in Crawl geometry :) 11:36] that's also true 11:36] regardless, the beam code shouldn't prevent experimentation here, so it should become more independent of metric; not for 0.6, though 11:37] @? shadow 11:37] shadow (10 ) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Damage: 505(drain strength) | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(20), 12cold+++, 03poison | XP: 28. 11:37] also, diagonal movement should definitely not take 14 aut :| 11:37] yes 11:38] did 4.1 do that? 11:39] No 11:39] I remember dpeg saying that 4.1 had done some things with the metric 11:40] ##crawl is still +R :P 11:40] I like it 11:40] it makes it feel like an exclusive club 11:41] there should be a lair entry vault with an island in the middle of 8 squares wide deep water 11:41] Napkin: Could we experimentally make ##crawl -r again? 11:41] what's -r? 11:41] by: why 11:41] sure 11:41] +r disallows joins by unregisterd users 11:42] aha 11:42] oh, it is 11:42] ah, -, yes 11:43] TGWi: oh, I'm just search for lair and had a big lake; it would have been a nice surprise to see the lair stair there 11:43] would make autotravel quite tedious though 11:43] Yes, let's not go there :P 11:43] I already let out a mighty wail of anguish when I get that vault with the river cutting off the stairs 11:43] 03j-p-e-g * rd5617325439c 10/crawl-ref/source/tilereg.cc: Fix Mantis BR 523: Tiles player mini hp/mp bar misbehaviour. 11:44] branches/portals should always have visible entrances 11:44] especially branches 11:45] 03by * r431f7c2fa97c 10/crawl-ref/source/message.cc: Fix long messages not being linebroken in history. 11:47] there just needs to be a button on the island that will lower the drawbridge; I'm sure due would be able to do that 11:48] :P 11:48] One of the Baileys could dothat 11:53] mmhm, new lair is pretty 12:06] greensnark: yes, I read their little rgrn talk 12:07] !read 12:07] bhaak: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 12:07] !messages 12:07] (1/1) dpeg said (41m 13s ago): You are always welcome over here :) 12:07] TGWi: I am one of the few proponents of square FOV 12:07] dpeg: a developer that runs crying to the competitors? :) 12:07] it may look odd but it will solve all issues at once, in a completely consistent manner 12:07] dpeg: Really circular FOV, you mean :) 12:08] Unlike the current looks-like-circle-to-human eyes LOS :P 12:08] by: I know that Brent had a test version with square FOV but 4.1 was circular 12:08] There are roguelikes that use true-circular FOV :) 12:09] I remember seeing mention of one on rgrd 12:09] Can't recall the name though :P 12:09] well, all norms are equivalent, so it isn't too bad to use one with a square unit ball 12:09] dpeg: switch crawl to hexes! 12:09] bhaak: well, at least we *would* understand you! 12:09] Someone already did that :P 12:09] what does a map like that look like in real life, I wonder? 12:09] Eronarn: I like my ASCII, thankyouverymuch 12:10] Eronarn: Have you seen Hexcrawl? :) 12:10] go 3D, it's all the rage now 12:10] (with actual circles looking like squares) 12:10] bhaak: I have an itching boot! :) 12:10] bhaak: We should go true-3d and require special glasses to play the game <3 12:11] dpeg: you can do hexes with ascii! 12:12] but not nicely 12:12] greensnark: yeah, for example, you could see multiple items stacked that pop out of the screen 12:12] depends on what you mean by nicely - i have been testing it and like it 12:12] doesn't show you as much info on surroundings as crawl currently does, of course 12:13] TGWi: what do you mean by a map like that 'in real life'? like, a map of the world? it would look very distorted 12:13] eronarn: well, no, the world is curved 12:14] TGWi: what you asked is rather not clear to me :) 12:16] you can draw a circle on the (curved) surface of the earth, and draw it as a circle on a flat surface, in which case it will be skewed 12:16] anything less abstract than crawl 12:16] and you can do the same thing and draw it as a square 12:16] in which case it will be even more skewed 12:16] (more in some areas, less in other areas, is my guesstimate) 12:16] see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tissot%27s_Indicatrix 12:17] i could be wrong though, it might be more distorted period. I don't do much work with projections, dpeg might be better to ask here 12:18] greensnark: think how you could visualize the tide in 3d! 12:25] How accurate is the spreadsheet compared to what was implemented for spellcasting AC changes? 12:26] Someone in ##crawl gave me stats that the spreadsheet says should be exactly the same as it was pbefore changes (Very Good), but he says it's dropping him all the way to Poor 12:26] * Cryp71c has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 12:26] * Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 12:26] twinge: the spreadsheet you've doesn't round AEVP so it's not entirely accurate 12:26] * Cryp71c has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 12:27] * Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 12:27] * Cryp71c has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 12:27] * Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 12:27] * Cryp71c has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 12:27] also it doesn't have ASP, so if he is wearing a shield he gets additional penalties 12:27] or a slow weapon 12:27] * Cryp71c_ has joined ##crawl-dev 12:27] syllogism: So if I manually round it up, it says it should be 'Good', still a long stretch from Poor. 12:27] * Cryp71c has joined ##Crawl-dev 12:27] Hmm 12:27] ??regeneration[2] 12:27] regeneration[2/5]: The base regeneration rate is your maximum hitpoints / 3. If this number is over 20, then divide the result by two and add ten. For example, 100 max health results in a regen rate of 26. RR accumulates every turn and for every 100 RR you gain, you regenerate 1 hp. For 1 hp per turn, 540 health is needed. For 1 hp per 2 turns, 240. 12:28] ??regeneration[3] 12:28] regeneration[3/5]: A ring adds 40 to your rr, troll leather armour 30, player mutation 20 per level, and the status effect (spell) 100. What this means is that a single ring of regen or piece of troll leather armour effectively doubles your healing rate (or better) for most characters. 12:28] 03greensnark * r796fa0d4be2b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (clua.cc dat/lua/pickup.lua items.cc): Fix broken pickup.lua (78291). 12:28] twinge what are the stats? 12:30] syllogism: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/elliptic/elliptic.txt 12:30] He is wearing a shield, yes. 12:30] correct dump: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/hyperbolic/hyperbolic.txt 12:30] oh, er - yeah. 12:31] double wizardry? 12:31] Triple even :P 12:34] seriously, backlog is getting huge these days 12:34] twinge: it's the shield penalty 12:34] without the shield it's at very good (and no wizardry) 12:35] It was changed that drastically? 12:35] could be a bug 12:36] greensnark? 12:36] crocodiles AND alligators? 12:36] argh, monster movement is a mess 12:37] doy: we should really look into some of what was discussed earlier wrt logging this channel 12:37] some way to make it easier 12:37] Eronarn: yeah, maybe 12:37] syllogism: Yo 12:37] greensnark: is shield penalty being applied after spellcasting failure stepdown 12:38] it basically completely destroys your success rate right now 12:38] It's being applied post stepdown, yes 12:38] Same place where the old armour penalty was applied 12:38] but it used to barely do anything 12:38] There's a big multiplier to the penalties 12:39] *25 12:39] Also, the die roll in ASP is gone 12:39] green: We've got someone with the new shield formula dropping what used to be 'Very Good' down to 'Poor', using a regular shield, and they even have some shield skill. 12:39] It seems to be a bit on the large side; elliptic jumps from being at "Poor" with a regular shield to "excellent" without 12:39] 25 * (AEVP + ASP) 12:40] His ASP is 3 12:40] oh I see now 12:40] That isn't reduced by shield skill anymore? 12:40] It is 12:40] but you can't mitigate the shield penalty, or at least it won't show due to randomization? 12:40] But it's 0.5*(1+Shields) instead of 1d(shields) 12:41] Yeah, that's true 12:41] So -15 became -75? That's huge 12:41] even at shields 27 you can't really cast any high level spells 12:42] Maybe we should just make it Shields / (5 + Size) 12:43] !tell dpeg implementing some of Twinge's Xom ideas, notably Monster:4, Other:3-5 to start with. 12:43] Cryp71c: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 12:43] And I personally have no problems with spellcasters being discouraged from SDA + shield :P 12:43] I don't either but the penalty is worse than the one you get from SDA :P 12:43] It's just that the amount of discouragement seems a little extreme here 12:43] at least with any decent str 12:43] green: They already are; he's using Might to even have enough Str to be reasonable there in the first place, and some Wizardry 12:43] So what say to Shields / (5+Size) 12:44] Shields being the Shield skill here? 12:44] Yes 12:44] ??size 12:44] I don't have a page labeled size in my learndb. 12:44] Size is 1/2/3/4? 12:44] Size would be 0 for demonspawn 12:45] 2 for Ha, 3 for Og 12:45] Er 12:45] -2 for Og 12:45] And maybe split ASP multiplier to something like, dunno 20 12:45] What about having 0 shield skill 12:45] For Spc penalty 12:46] The full formula is SP - Shields / (5+Size) 12:46] Currently it's SP - (1+Shields)/(2*(5+Size)) 12:46] That's the only change I've made to the formulae on the wiki, to eliminate the die roll 12:47] Er, there's no 2* on the wiki formula? 12:47] 1dShields is (1+Shields)/2 on average 12:47] Oh, that's to average it right 12:47] Yeah 12:47] In addition to this change, we reduce the Spc penalty multiplier for ASP to 20 12:48] That still sounds pretty high, but it's a start. Let me take a closer look 12:48] That will drop elliptic's penalty from shield to 40 12:49] I need dpeg to sign off on this 12:49] -15 to -40 with 5 Shield Skill. Hmm. 12:49] The old penalty was a joke 12:49] True 12:50] x15 multiplier may work better 12:50] But either way, dpeg's call 12:50] -20 is probably fair, since it tiers down fast enough 12:50] syllogism: What do you think? 12:50] At Shield Skill 10 you'd be at -20 12:51] But it does now require a decent investment in shield skill, which it iddn't before 12:51] Oh yes 12:51] I need to prevent the penalties from becoming bonuses 12:52] dpeg: You around? 12:52] why are edged weapons not autopickedup anymore 12:53] I have to go soon, and I won't get time on this till next weekend 12:53] Yeah, cap them certainly, Don't need Very Good -> Excellent from wearing your Shield that is secretly of Wizardry ;) 12:56] 03greensnark * reb50c020e627 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Don't let shield penalty turn into a bonus. 12:56] ..where is the code for opening doors at? I can't find "You open the door" in any files. 12:56] Cryp71c: parts of that string are almost certainly %s 12:56] greensnark: yes to your shields idea, just don't be too generous 12:56] dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 12:57] Cryp71c: Try grepping for 'You open', it's in main.cc 12:57] dpeg: Ok, I'll make it Shields instead of (1+Shields)/2 for mitigation 12:58] Should I leave the multiplier at 25 or 20? 12:58] greensnark: I cannot say :/ 12:58] syllogism: are you hereß 12:58] Ok, I'll drop it to 20 12:58] I may be busy until next weekend, but anyone else on the team can make further adjustments if I'm not around 12:59] syllogism disappeared :P 12:59] green: 20 sounds good, 15 would be too generous 12:59] not good :) 12:59] He's probably auctioning off his massive collection of large shields on crBay 12:59] hehe 12:59] greensnark: I need to come up with Armour/Dodging/Stealth training ideas and with something for the slow god 13:00] I don't think the Arm/Dod training should hold up 0.6 :) 13:00] Good to have it though 13:00] The heavy/light distinction is eternal confusion :P 13:00] greensnark: I always planned to redo Armour/Dodging training as last part of the AC change. 13:01] armour/dodging/stealth training will be rewritten again in 0.7, if we use that alternate skill training model that we were discussing 13:01] players on ##crawl as exegesing the new formulas :) 13:01] so unless it's terribly broken now 13:01] not sure that it's especially worth it 13:01] doy: not sure, my input would be to change how it triggers 13:01] * purge has joined ##crawl-dev 13:02] is elven armour as broken as it seems? any plans for that? 13:02] by: tell us, please. 13:02] if there's no light/heavy distinction, there seems to be no advantage of elven over plain 13:03] elven has -25 less to spc penalty 13:03] hrm! Still no comments on my tree tiles! I need feedback :) 13:03] ok, that was missed before 13:03] it also should give bonuses to stealth 13:03] It does give stealth bonuses, I haven't changed that part of the code 13:03] purge: Are they on Mantis? 13:04] yeah 13:04] good, then, forget the issue 13:04] 03pointless_ * r92649d288031 10/crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Fedhas worshipers get fruit from food acquirement (patch by MarvinPA) 13:04] 03pointless_ * r6c1134becfc5 10/crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Display the food acquirement option as 'Fruit' for Fedhas worshipers 13:04] I'm unsure about the shield multiplier 13:04] by: Can you fix it if it's too good :) 13:04] I have a full week coming up :/ 13:04] Enne: I don't know if the palm tree one really fits now so you can put it in unused for maybe future branch use like desert if you agree 13:05] pointless_: good stuff! 13:05] Happy banana. 13:05] Ooh, that's an nice touch <3 13:05] Can I get pineapples? 13:05] purge: Are the trees in the picture with the palm trees the old trees? (For comparison?) 13:05] @whereis greensnark 13:05] greensnark the Archer (L13 DEHu), a worshipper of Zin, saved on Orc:3 on 2010-01-24 after 35298 turns. 13:06] greensnark: if it turns out to be broken, I'll give it a try; I haven't been following the changes however 13:06] Enne: yes 13:06] Enne: I also retouched those trees in that other mantis item "tree retouched" 13:06] yay, fruit! 13:06] purge: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=520 ? 13:06] er, tree tiles "impoved" submission 13:06] yeah 13:07] the in-game shots show my new ones with the old ones 13:07] MarvinPA: if you plan on contributing more patches, it's actually more convenient for us if you use 'git format-patch' to make the patch 13:07] purge: Yeah, the improved trees are *way* better. 13:07] Hm, disadvantage of 20 multiplier is that a buckler has no impact on spellcasting 13:07] hrm, I can't get xom to act in debug...started as DSCK of Xom...is there something preventing his action in wizard 13:07] It's entirely canceled by the -20 13:07] ahh ok, i was doing it through the gitk interface thingy currently 13:07] Shrug, it'll serve 13:07] purge: I think the original one ones fell into this trap a little bit much: http://gas13.ru/v3/tutorials/sywtbapa_gradient_tool.php 13:08] green: If they have skill 13:08] * Kyrris has joined ##crawl-dev 13:08] Twinge: No, if you have no ASP, and a buckler, the buckler won't affect your spc chances at all 13:08] Whereas at 25 it will add a penalty of 5 13:08] Enne: yeah, i don't use gradient anymore really. I start with a solid color and use a texture overlay and inner shadow in photoshop 13:08] ...Huh? Shouldn't it be (1 - 0/5)*-20? 13:09] The formula is 25*AEVP+20*ASP-20-racial_bonus 13:09] purge: Maybe it just looked "too smooth" compared to the other Crawl tiles, if that makes any sense? 13:09] Ok, shield multiplier is arbitrarily 22 13:10] I shall update the wiki before I go 13:10] Enne: yeah, thats exactly how i feel about the old ones 13:10] Well wait, won't they then get +20 by not wearing any shield? 13:10] Enne: Now that i look at my newer ones they could be improved more, but they are definately an improvement over the old ones :) 13:10] greensnark: so we should have keep looking at (1) 1.5 handers, (2) effects of shields on casting? 13:10] Twinge: The whole thing is clamped to be positive 13:10] purge: I do like the new trees quite a bit. Thanks for all the art submissions, lately. :) 13:11] dpeg: Yes, although 1.5 handers are much less important 13:11] green: I don't follow. 13:11] Enne: jpeg but in my burning bush tile, do i need to make 2 more versions to animate it? 13:11] put* 13:11] Twinge: That's the spc penalty 13:11] purge: If you want? I'm not sure it's required. 13:11] So if you're not wearing a buckler or shield, the value will be -20, which will be clamped at 0 13:11] *not wearing buckler or body arm 13:12] greensnark: hm, buckler with no Shields skill should decrease casting rates a bit, no? 13:12] dpeg: Yes 13:12] So I'm using a multiplier of 22 now 13:12] It may actually be ok at 25 13:12] I'm unsure 13:12] Enne: ok, i might do that then. How many frames should the animation have? 13:12] 3 like the flame cloud? 13:12] dpeg: I shall leave it at 25 for now? 13:13] purge: I don't know how burning bushes work. Do they go out over time? Or just destroy the bush? 13:13] greensnark: Hmm. That seems kind of an odd way to do the formula then :P Hmm... 13:13] They recite the ten commandments! :) 13:13] Enne: they seem to explode in a cloud of fire actually 13:13] greensnark: I cannot estimate it, but I'd rather go for 25. 13:14] dpeg: Cool, that's my second impression too 13:14] We *will* hear players complaining loudly about something that's too hard. 13:14] They will complain loudly even if it's a little harder :P 13:14] It's much harder to infer from the silence that something is too weak. 13:14] Yes 13:14] Unless there's a way to tweak the formula so that that penalty isn't ignored like that 13:14] Also, a heavy nerf is like a good cleansing. 13:15] :) 13:15] 03greensnark * rf2fbd09ae40d 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Double the effect of Shields skill on ASP. 13:15] a bit like chastising in the old days :) 13:15] purge: Then maybe even two frames of bush animation might be fine. Just something to make it flicker back and forth? 13:16] Enne: ok, i might just do three anyways and you guys can decide :) 13:16] Can we replace some of the trees in Swamp with plants and bushes? 13:16] A small number 13:16] 03by * re26087ec7b47 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-util.cc mon-util.h): Revert "Revert "mons_is_firewood: Monsters that other monsters may cut through."" 13:16] 03by * rdac4468bf59a 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Convert _may_cutdown to consult the restored mons_is_firewood. 13:17] sure 13:17] 03by * ra2c4c6a85085 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-behv.cc: Make monsters not autotarget firewood. 13:17] 03by * r34c66fc9c2b8 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Update mons_is_firewood documentation to reflect new use. 13:17] 03by * rfa621cc09771 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Monster movemement: Don't move-into-fight plants. 13:17] 03by * r1865e01c8322 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Moving into and fighting plants is not a "good move". 13:17] Praise by. 13:17] by: "mons_is_firewood" was much cuter anyway 13:17] That will make summoning so much less frustrating. 13:17] And all the monsters are anxious to prepare for the cruel winter! 13:17] there was still a variable "is_firewood" left 13:18] dpeg: We should do dungeon seasons sometime 13:18] greensnark: pfff :) 13:18] Add ice, generate more ice in winter 13:18] does ADOM have this? 13:18] More fruits in summer! 13:18] I don't think so 13:18] how about phases of the moon 13:18] More uniques on the beach in summer! 13:18] monsters chopping down firewood to melt the ice 13:18] The seasons should be Australian seasons 13:18] How is EVP figured (not AEVP)? Is that just the armor -EV mod? 13:18] So summer in December 13:18] Twinge: yes 13:19] I am sure DF has seasons. 13:21] Damn. That formula is not easily tweaked to attack Bucklers from another side. Hum. 13:23] * Disconnected 13:23] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 13:23] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 13:23] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 13:23] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 13:25] * Disconnected 13:26] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 13:26] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 13:26] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 13:26] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 13:26] I'll admit it made me very productive on Crawl for a bit :P 13:27] greensnark: ah, but boring work is probably not good for Crawl in the long run either 13:27] Yes 13:28] * Disconnected 13:29] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 13:29] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 13:29] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 13:29] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 13:29] Cryp71c: debug includes wizmode 13:29] doy: ..that's wierd I'm not getting the debug message from xom_is_stimulated (or else xom_is_stimulated isn't being called) 13:30] Jeez, what kind of bug report is that :P 13:30] green: I'm thinking 23 rather than 25. I looked at changing the formula in other ways, but that's require rethinking how the racial mod is applied completely, among other things, so would be pretty awkward. 13:30] Twinge-: Man to convince is dpeg :) 13:31] What I could do instead is to increase the granularity of the penalties 13:32] So SP-Shields/(5+size) would become 1000*SP - 1000*Shields/(5+Size) 13:32] So that skilling up shows more smoothly 13:32] Instead of ugly discrete jumps 13:32] dpeg: Do you agree? 13:32] Then you'd need a 1+Shields 13:33] Why? 13:33] 0 Shield skill is a -1000 penalty with a buckler? 13:33] This is just a granularity change 13:33] At the end everything is divided by 1000 13:33] Yes, but -- okay, so not literally what you just used as an example formula, hehe 13:34] greensnark: smoothness is fine, sure 13:34] Ok, will change 13:35] Wouldn't that mean at 1 shield skill you'd still be looking at a -200 penalty though? 13:35] Or maye I'm still not picturing this properly 13:35] This is merely a granularity change 13:35] If I do x/3 + x/3 with integer math with x=2, the roundoff kills the numbers 13:36] But if I do 100*(x/3+x/3)/100 13:36] Twinge: -200/1000 13:36] Okay, I'll take your word for it without scrutinizing your psuedocode formula 13:36] ;) 13:36] Sorry (100*x/3+100*x/3)/100 13:37] * Twinge- nods 13:38] I was just focusing too much on your example and couldn't get my mind off that :P 13:40] * MarvinPA has quit IRC (Connection timed out) 13:42] * Twinge_ has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 13:42] doy: love the new lair 13:44] Is the new Vaults code already in master? 13:45] I don't think so 13:45] * Twinge has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 13:45] who did that -- doy or due? 13:45] by: (: 13:45] due 13:45] dpeg: due was doing vaults 13:46] greensnark: thanks for telling about dropping grapes on the floor 13:46] !tell due Do you think that the new Vaults layout should go into 0.6? (I just need to know because I prepare another 0.6 email.) 13:46] dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 13:47] by: :) 13:47] Yes, new Lair is <3 13:49] I as well <3 new lair 13:49] update, by? 13:49] Napkin: yes, please! 13:50] would be great! 13:50] compiling :) 13:52] * Kyrris has quit IRC 13:52] Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2677-g1865e01 (16.2) 13:52] crawl seasons should definitely exist, ties in perfectly with eronarn's plant obsession 13:53] Oh yeah, trees would be red or yellow in autumn :P 13:53] Some trees :P 13:54] we just need to make sure to implement months at the same time 13:54] so we can stress the australianity 13:54] TGWi: I am not sure developers share the plant obsession. At least, I don't. 13:55] i think some more interesting plants could be a reasonable idea 13:55] * nrook has joined ##crawl-dev 13:56] 03j-p-e-g * rb83ba7411f11 10/crawl-ref/source/tilereg.cc: Experimentally, use hp_colour to decide player doll hp bar colour. 13:56] 03j-p-e-g * rc9bc0edf78aa 10/crawl-ref/source/ (10 files in 3 dirs): Add Porkchop's ego/randart tiles for banded/plate/splint mail. Thanks! 13:56] 03j-p-e-g * r9365853fd095 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (54 files in 4 dirs): Also rename other armour tiles to match their plain/ego/randart order. 13:56] * eith has quit IRC 13:56] 03j-p-e-g * rfea4fc75c954 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (64 files in 3 dirs): Also rename weapon tiles to match their normal/ego variants' order. 13:57] 03j-p-e-g * rb4a6c95b5348 10/crawl-ref/source/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Add Porkchop's tile for the penetration brand. 13:57] * eith has joined ##crawl-dev 14:00] seasons and special days. On April 1st, rats should be pink elephants. 14:00] fresh from minced: BTW, I'm quite happy with the new mummy changes. Midgame feels about the same, but early game went from frustrating to just hard. 14:00] but more serious, bright green trees definitely don't fit well with Swamp. 14:01] kilobyte: would be perfectly okay to have all Swamp trees be dark green (and special tiles, too, I guess). 14:02] doy: my standard complaints: (1) Plants are typically stationary. The one exception in Crawl is a nice joke. More moving plants would be out of place, imho. (2) Stationary and slow monsters are generally uninteresting. And we have a lot of those already. 14:02] Some brown trees too? 14:02] For Swamp 14:02] greensnark: why not? 14:02] dpeg: curse skulls and oklobs aren't uninteresting, for instance 14:02] <3 14:02] doy: I know, but these are two stationary monsters we already have. 14:03] greensnark: good idea! 14:03] dpeg: right, just saying that it's not impossible to come up with interesting stationary monsters 14:03] currently, trees are 3/4 dark green 1/4 bright green, on a hash 14:03] doy: sure, can be done. But now look at the plants wiki... 14:03] minced is still working on the div god, so that's good for 0.7 :) 14:04] well, yes, but look at the new monster wiki page too 14:04] most of these things should be ignored 14:04] (: 14:04] doesn't mean we have to ignore all of them though 14:04] doy: I did not say that new plants are out of the question. I just try to trim down the general enthusiasm about plants a bit. 14:04] yeah, wiki has a number of advantages but one big issue: no way to close an idea without throwing out all record about it 14:05] kilobyte: ? 14:05] back 14:05] kilobyte: there should be a Tomb pile art some point 14:05] syllogism: Sold your shields yet? :P 14:05] is shield penalty still randomized 14:05] syllogism: too late! Various crucial changes are now already in. 14:05] No 14:05] I don't use shields anyway, can't spare the xp until it's too late :P 14:06] Future characters wearing crystal plate and shield and attempting to cast spells will be visited by a Killer Klown with a bladder on a stick 14:06] unless I get some nice randart 14:07] * Disconnected 14:09] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 14:09] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 14:09] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 14:09] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 14:11] I fail to see how seasons are different from genders. 14:11] well, don't let people choose the seasons 14:11] just make orange/red and brown trees 14:12] a seasonal portal vault sounds kind of cool though 14:12] dpeg: It just adds atmosphere 14:12] Which is a nice thing to have, although it would be more or less orthogonal to gameplay 14:12] greensnark: but gender also adds atmosphere! 14:12] what, four rooms, with artichokes in one? 14:13] trees can already be recolored in vaults using the normal syntax, the hash is applied only if they don't get recolored otherwise 14:13] Hm, I don't know that gender is similar to this 14:13] * Enne_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:13] * ChanServ sets mode: +v Enne_ 14:13] a "four seasons" vault? 14:13] I don't feel too strongly about seasons 14:13] greensnark: hey, I am a atmosphere nut, I just don't think that seasons will be worth the effort. 14:13] But I don't think it would a) harm anything and b) it would definitely improve the "feel" of the dungeon 14:13] * Enne has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:13] * Enne_ is now known as Enne 14:13] * Kyrris has joined ##crawl-dev 14:13] Since "feel" is subjective... :) 14:14] merfolk and mermaid should reproduce when the player's invisible 14:14] dpeg: Yeah, I'm not suggesting someone put time into it :) 14:14] one corner with flowers and shit, one with ice and stuff, ... 14:14] kilobyte: no 14:14] that kind of atmosphere? 14:14] make it actually go through all four seasons with a lot of voodoo 14:14] Crawl, Porn Edition 14:14] Voodoo and rage. 14:14] Mermaid centerfold 14:14] m on m porn :) 14:14] generate rain and spawn plants, then start throwing sunlight at everything 14:14] tail dildos 14:15] Dear god 14:15] all the snapping turtles in Lair are scaring me 14:15] by: rightly so! 14:15] Each time I make a mildly offcolour joke these days, dpeg surpasses me :P 14:15] useful atmosphere: speech; colours in (portal) vaults; blood etc. 14:16] was that diminished xp commit reverted 14:16] greensnark: panzerkown 14:16] greensnark: panzerklown even 14:16] syllogism: yes 14:16] Actually, no 14:16] yeah I thought it wasn'at 14:16] I did not remove the XP downscaling 14:16] Someone complaining? :P 14:16] I am now :P 14:16] I wonder if due could do that 14:16] * greensnark fires a walrus at syllogism. 14:17] ah, sorry 14:17] I confused diminished xp cap with the xp pool changes, sorry 14:17] the cap should stay, of course 14:17] pff 14:18] it makes little sense to have both 14:18] unless you somehow hate people playing post game fo rfun 14:18] syllogism: both? 14:18] finite spawns 14:18] and the cap 14:18] hm, sounds reasonable 14:18] greensnark: what do you think? 14:19] what xp cap? 14:19] It's a terrible idea if it involves syllogism playing another Nemelex ziggurat :P 14:19] you know it's coming :P 14:19] Yeah, sounds fine to me :) 14:19] The only potential problem with uncapping the pool is making manuals more useful, right? 14:20] we aren't talking about pool 14:20] greensnark: could you revert? 14:20] kyrris: cap manual exp usage 14:20] Also, is the shield changes in? 14:20] The shield change is in, but I'm working on adding better precision in the penalties 14:21] thank you 14:21] including AEVP? 14:21] Yes 14:21] dpeg: do you mean, you want the 100 XP penalty removed? 14:21] it lost most of its purpose, but it doesn't hurt to have it either way 14:21] * kloeri_ has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:22] kilobyte: good you're here! Isn't the scumming already abolished by the finite spawning? 14:22] 30k turns, right? 14:22] 3k - 9k 14:22] yeah, and most other races can do Pan just as well as mummies (and they don't suck) 14:22] wait, the xp downscaling wasn't removed? 14:22] well in total 14:22] * kloeri_ has joined ##crawl-dev 14:22] i was assuming it was 14:23] commit 42b59c174d547ff34b1040de3440b1e5807aa654 14:24] x_val >>= you.kills->num_kills(monster) / 100; 14:24] kilobyte: at your discretion 14:24] okay, I am trying to come up with something useful for Che, Armour/doding/stealth 14:24] later 14:24] * Twinge- has quit IRC (Connection timed out) 14:25] uhm, so someone make the decision: should the cap be left or not? 14:25] oh, one more thing: greensnark, did rax reply on combined CAO + CDO statistics? 14:25] dpeg: No, but I didn't ask her directly 14:25] Developer opinions? 14:25] I don't think the XP downscaling after 100 kills does any harm 14:25] I say remove the cap for clearness (hygiene). 14:26] I'd say revert, if the issue has been dealt with differently 14:26] Ok 14:26] I don't like that at all, and I get mistaken for a dev sometimes 14:26] kilobyte: Can you do the honours? 14:26] TGWi: huh, how's that? 14:27] You don't own the + of pride :) 14:27] 03kilobyte * rb44f68244107 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Revert the XP cap for hundreds of kills. 14:27] * ChanServ sets mode: +v doy 14:27] thanks 14:32] I did some thinking about the hellfire-vs-AC/EV issue, and came to a conclusion that it shouldn't be left aside 14:33] since in most EV splats I analyzed, it wasn't about the player making a mistake, merely having bad luck 14:33] aren't most splats like that 14:33] a fiend/pit fiend/XXX decides to hellfire you twice before you kill it? You die. 14:34] well not quite, but I mean you make a mistake and then get unlucky 14:34] and AC makes it merely a slight annoyance 14:34] talking about end game mistakes here 14:35] * Disconnected 14:35] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 14:35] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 14:35] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 14:35] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 14:35] having _mistakes_ be deadly is ok 14:44] * Disconnected 14:53] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 14:53] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 14:53] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 14:53] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 14:53] kilobyte: my point is just that we should try to address this in ways that doesn't make hellfire less consistent with how the rest of the game works 14:53] I don't think that's a bad idea, but ignoring ac also hurts spell casters 14:53] * Twinge_ has quit IRC (No route to host) 14:54] Wouldn't making hellfire like the demonic version of smiting be -more- consistent? 14:54] In the sense of ignoring AC. 14:54] Kyrris: that's exactly my point 14:54] !lg * kaux=~hellfire place=pan -tv 14:54] 23. KiloByte, XL27 SpDK, T:199328 requested for FooTV. 14:54] I see :P 14:54] Kyrris: it would be consistent with smiting 14:54] very big, very bad smiting from hell 14:55] Kyrris: that's one viewpoint, sure 14:56] !log * kaux=~hellfire place=pan -tv 14:56] No games for * (kaux=~hellfire place=pan -tv). 14:57] !log * kaux=~hellfire place=pan 14:57] 23. KiloByte, XL27 SpDK, T:199328: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/KiloByte/morgue-KiloByte-20100111-235702.txt 14:58] * syllogism has quit IRC 15:00] !lg * kaux=~hellfire place=pan -2 -tv 15:00] 22. DrPraetor, XL27 MfTm, T:133336 requested for FooTV. 15:02] busy writing a Che mail... I think that changing Hellfire to (a) a different name and (b) that is not ignored by AC might be okay. (with (c), reduced damage, I guess) 15:03] !lg * kaux=~hellfire place=pan -3 -tv 15:03] 21. Barefoot, XL27 HaIE, T:94137 requested for FooTV. 15:03] eh, keeping the name is probably fine 15:03] i'm not entirely sure that we want to go in the direction of more things ignoring ac though 15:04] i mean, that just seems to be the way out for "we can't figure out how to balance lategame characters, so better just make things that aren't able to be prepared for" 15:04] kilobyte: the last two are really stupid deaths, do you have some other good examples? 15:05] is there something that ignores AC but not EV? 15:05] smiting and poison are fine because they are early game threats 15:05] dpeg, no 15:05] and torment is okay too 15:05] but mainly because it's a special thing 15:05] dpeg: rock worms? 15:05] if we start making all sorts of things do that, then it becomes less interesting 15:05] by: good point. But they're not on par with hellfire :) 15:05] AC effectively multiplies your hp by a large amount, in a guaranteed way 15:06] 03Enne * r5b3dcb418cf5 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-dngn/wall/ (tree1.png tree2.png): [520] Add purge's newer tree tiles. 15:06] it's not like EV-based characters have no AC 15:06] "in a guaranteed way" and "by a large amount" are not true together 15:07] also, light armour means you can go stealthy, hence choose your fights (even in Pan) 15:07] by: an elf sorcerer doing it twice in subsequent turns, against a char with DMsl (ignored) and playing in a paranoid way 15:08] why give him two turns? 15:08] by: or, someone running from Dispater while still having 2/3 hp and meeting a fiend he tried to run around 15:08] Personally, I think that Hellfire is a strong but unimaginative answer to "how on earth do we make life hard in the endgame?". 15:08] instead of toning it down and making it ignore ac, we could treat it as a normal fireball, except reduce rf by 1d3 or so 15:09] So I do think that kilobyte has a point. 15:09] i think someone proposed that the last time this came up 15:09] dpeg: yes, that was my point about the "make it ignore ac" thing 15:09] by: stealth? In the end-game? Draconians have crappy awareness, but big undead/demons are nearly untouched by it. 15:09] I disagree in so far as the danger is unfair to EV-based characters 15:09] We might not solve it right now, but there should at least be a wiki page after today's discussion, so we don't have to reinvent all the stuff again. 15:09] I like doy's idea. 15:10] Make hellfire behave like Cerebov's sword instead of like smiting. 15:10] kilobyte: sure stealth works in the end-game 15:10] by: how many 1s have you stabbed? 15:11] it might help to make hellfire's damage range smaller 15:11] !log char=hawr 15:11] 1. rob, XL27 HaWr, T:157272: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/rob/morgue-rob-20080902-205427.txt 15:12] at least a large part of those were stabs 15:12] stabbing 1s is only hard because you can't use eh, really 15:12] so you only get one chance 15:13] I guess confusion would also work 15:13] @??ice fiend 15:13] Ice Fiend (161) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 54-144 | AC/EV: 15/6 | Damage: 2512(cold), 2512(cold) | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(288), 12cold+++, 03poison | Vul: 04fire | XP: 2609 | Sp: b.cold, torment symbol, demon. 15:13] large? I went through 83 levels of Pan in a game once as a short blade spriggan and got _one_ stab on a 1. 15:13] @??pit fiend 15:13] Pit Fiend (071) | Speed: 8 | HD: 19 | Health: 76-171 | AC/EV: 17/5 | Damage: 28, 21, 21 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(304), 05hellfire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 1874. 15:13] ~300 mr is pretty tough to overcome for pretty much any enchantment 15:13] confusion is only really somewhat reliable up to ~150 or so 15:14] @??cerebov 15:14] Cerebov (05&) | Speed: 10 | HD: 21 | Health: 650 | AC/EV: 30/8 | Damage: 60 | Flags: 05demonic, see invisible | Res: 06magic(168), 04hellfire+++, 03poison | XP: 15000 | Sp: fire storm, iron shot, haste, greater demon. 15:14] has anyone ever confusion-stabbed cerebov? 15:14] should be straightforward with ?vuln 15:14] kilobyte: as far as I remember that game, most of the kills were by stabbing 15:16] !lm char=hawr rune=dark -tv 15:16] 1. rob, XL27 HaWr, T:127511 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 15:17] wait, that was with Zin? 15:17] by: style points! 15:17] first one wasn't a stab at least 15:18] !lm char=hawr rune=fiery -tv 15:18] 1. rob, XL27 HaWr, T:127987 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 15:19] elliptic is getting lua errors after grabbing the orb 15:19] 03greensnark * rfcbd835ac9a0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (fight.cc libutil.h player.cc player.h): Calculate EV and spellcasting penalty with a scale of 2, rounding the final EV number up and the final spellcasting penalty down. 15:19] by: god_likes_butchery is used in some pickup lua? 15:21] in both ttyrecs, there was one stab total, and thanks to teleport not sneaking up 15:22] but the fiends didn't wake up too fast :) 15:22] an one-round delay in two cases 15:22] !lm char=hawr rune=obsidian -tv 15:22] 1. rob, XL27 HaWr, T:154934 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 15:23] sure, one round means you can turn back, but that's nothing vital 15:23] !tell due minced (who's still working on the div god) had the fleshworks. He liked it, but it was pretty easy for him (Mummy). He suggested that perhaps Cigutovi's monsters could have a mutagenic attack? 15:23] dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 15:23] dpeg: don't know 15:24] by: minced is getting tons of error messages when walking over items to be picked up (even gold) and they all include "god_likes_butchery". 15:24] greensnark: thank you! 15:24] greensnark did some auto-pickup fixes 15:25] there, better example 15:25] oh, this one is indeed better 15:27] @whereis pingpong 15:27] pingpong the Skirmisher (L5 DSBe), a worshipper of Trog, saved on D:4 on 2010-01-24 after 4631 turns. 15:28] need sleep now, good night 15:28] * by has quit IRC ("leaving") 15:29] it's kind of difficult to beef cigotuvi's monster up since he's just a renamed tentacled monstrosity 15:29] can give him spells 15:29] poly other, if that weren't completely lame 15:30] 03j-p-e-g * rb9b0a304316f 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/player/hand1/ (holy_scourge1.png holy_scourge2.png): Replace the default player doll holy scourge tile with another one. 15:30] 03j-p-e-g * r2f373b1b70ff 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/ (116 files in 6 dirs): Move player doll non-weapon hand1/non-shield hand2 tiles into subfolders. 15:30] it would be silly to have it cast spells 15:30] not casting 15:30] have abilities* 15:30] dpeg: I guess that function was removed with the sacrifice changes 15:30] yeah he's also only speed 9 15:30] greensnark: yes, but some lua still depends on it? 15:31] Mu_: currently, a caster just snipes them 15:31] important update? should I? 15:31] dpeg: The pickup Lua used that to check whether the player needed a butchering knife 15:31] they could produce large fogs of mutagenic fog when dying 15:31] greensnark: ah, I see 15:31] dpeg do you think it's worth turning him into a true unique with his own stats? 15:31] Mu_: Who? Cigutovi? 15:32] Cigotuvi is the supertransmuter, right? What if you made the whole lab the enemy? 15:32] cigotuvi's monster 15:32] would be cool if you made a unique animated weapon 15:32] :D 15:32] 03greensnark * rfbcabc8f602a 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/lua/pickup.lua: Remove god_likes_butchery check from butcher-knife pickup logic. 15:32] Mu_: not sure 15:32] "Tukimas dagger" 15:32] Let the walls and furniture also attack, until the central brain monster is killed. 15:32] greensnark: double thanks 15:32] Like the Zerg creep. 15:32] or "Tukimas triple sword" 15:32] yeah he's tmut/necro 15:32] "Tukimas triple sword that got stuck in enchanted mode after a spell misscast" 15:33] :D 15:33] Well, it would be incredibly cool if there was a portal vault where you had to hack and slash your way through the flesh. Typical themes: jungle, or flesh. Not sure where to use it. 15:33] Gotta ask due. 15:33] cbus: <3 15:33] <3 15:33] dpeg: hey, i proposed hackable flesh walls a long time ago, you didn't want them then :P 15:33] * Cryp71c has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 15:33] Really, it sounds perfect for a necro/mut laboratory. 15:34] Eronarn: Your ideas need time to mature, like a fine wine! 15:34] Living walls and piles of animate corpses used as building materials. 15:34] Eronarn: I guess you proposed this with a billion of other things, though :) 15:34] or perhaps a "gellatinous cube" vault, where you have to cut through jelly 15:34] I loved the levels in Gradius/Parodius, where you have to shoot yourself a way. 15:34] slime walls! 15:34] kilobyte: yes 15:35] A gingerbread prison where you have to eat your way out, while attacked by red ants 15:35] You have to strategically decide which walls to eat, because you can't eat when full! 15:35] greensnark: do I need to get out the dildos again? :) 15:35] And the ants are after you :P 15:35] greensnark: hey, awesome. Tell that to due! 15:35] I'll do. 15:35] :P 15:35] greensnark: that's true. I am the least mature dev, after all. 15:36] lair of the candymancer 15:36] !tell due Cute idea for an early portal vault by greensnark: A gingerbread prison where you have to eat your way out, while attacked by red ants. You have to strategically decide which walls to eat, because you can't eat when full! 15:36] dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 15:36] speaking of piles of animated corpses, Twisted Resurrection has an UI problem where you have to collect corpses by hand before casting. What about turning the corpses into animated body parts (toadstool weak to disallow using it for a meat shield) which crawl together to form abominations? 15:36] The home of Nergalle? :) 15:36] dpeg: That wasn't serious :P 15:37] kilobyte: That's grotesque. 15:37] one thing that could work well for destroyable walls - walls have HP based on the # of walls around them, so destroying a wall weakens all surrounding walls 15:37] greensnark: does not matter, it is still good 15:37] And twisted. 15:37] early portal vaults == good 15:37] Kyrris: that's the point! :) 15:37] would make it easier to take down pillars, much harder to dig through 15:37] kilobyte: I like it. But not for 0.6 anymore! 15:37] kilobyte: you have that idea in mind? Else we'd have to jot it down somewhere. 15:38] I can put in the wiki. 15:38] thanks 15:38] dpeg: clearly we need a Minetown portal vault :) 15:38] kilobyte: I love it 15:38] That is such an awesome idea 15:39] Writhing masses of flesh crawling together! 15:39] :) 15:39] Make it hit every corpse in LoS? 15:39] Would be a beautiful thing, after clearing a beehive. 15:39] can we mark enemy abominations as undead instead of demonic too? :p 15:39] Should let some monster cast twisted resurrection 15:39] Eronarn: I've got a loose boot! 15:40] Nethack references alert. 15:40] Kyrris: the effect would be same as current stacking of corpses, sans the manual work part 15:40] kilobyte: yes, that's very good 15:40] kilobyte: would help interface and flavour 15:40] I've never bothered with Twisted Res. because I had to arranged corpses manually 15:40] kilobyte: Yes. I realize this, and like it. It's just more fun to imagine seeing. 15:40] This would fix that completely <3 15:40] kilobyte: one thing that i favor is to actually have it be based on chunks instead of corpses 15:41] Mu_: we should add Hentai Love Tentacle monsters so demons can have their abominations too :p 15:41] also, it would keep our tiles artists busy for years to come 15:41] and to autobutcher corpses in LOS 15:41] o deer 15:41] of course. corpses = pre-merged chunks 15:41] doesn't corpse weight matter? 15:41] it does 15:41] dpeg: yes, but corpse weight is a joke 15:41] the values are insane 15:42] chunk weight is based on corpse weight but the randomness obscures how stupid corpse weight is as a measure 15:42] Someone was just fixing that, Eronarn. 15:42] Twinge? 15:42] Kyrris: did he start? hmm, hope not - wanted to talk to him about it first 15:43] well, big monsters give many chunks, small monsters give 1. People hardly ever compare the big numbers. 15:43] - there are a LOT of monster properties that could use reevaluation 15:43] better to do it all at once than go through the list each time for each property 15:45] * pointless__ has joined ##crawl-dev 15:46] pointless__: Hi Charles! 15:46] Hi 15:46] * pointless_ has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.) 15:46] !tell due And corpses of Henzell and Gretell in the gingerbread oven. 15:46] kilobyte: OK, I'll let due know. 15:46] * henryci has joined ##crawl-dev 15:46] * pointless__ is now known as pointless_ 15:46] * ChanServ sets mode: +v pointless_ 15:46] henryci: Hi Henry! 15:47] howdy. 15:47] kilobyte: pointing out the obvious? :) 15:47] Have a sec to answer a quick style q? 15:47] henryci: fire away. 15:47] currently the overmap description string is generated by a 250 line function in overmap.cc 15:48] oh, code -- I am illiterate 15:48] ohh. 15:48] n/m. :P 15:48] * Cryp71c_ is now known as Cryp71c 15:48] henryci: but the other good souls here are not 15:48] so keep firing 15:48] * Cryp71c has quit IRC 15:48] greensnark: how would you colour the trees in Swamp? 15:48] basically the overmap is 250 lines long, and it's composoed of several very disparate pieces of code. One part iterating through the level comments, another for altars, etc. So I put my stuff in it's own function, and call it. 15:48] Hey, I'm not code illiterate, and you specified "good souls", where does that leave me? 15:49] which I think is better, but it strays from the way it's currently done 15:49] is this ok, or no? 15:49] greensnark: I only said: good soul ==> literate, nothing more 15:49] kilobyte: dark greens and browns sound good to me 15:49] henryci: refactoring is good, sure 15:50] henryci: By all means break up those monolithic functions 15:50] So I can go ahead and refactor the existing code as well? 15:50] yes, please 15:50] overmap.cc has probably not been cleaned up since 4.0 15:50] that makes me so happy. 15:50] *gleeful* 15:50] greensnark: Ctrl-O has been completely redone for 0.2. Do you remember the old output? 15:50] kilobyte: Should I make the tree changes? 15:50] greensnark: yes, please 15:51] dpeg: I remember, but the code itself was not refactored that I recall 15:51] New stuff was just shoehorned into the old structure :) 15:51] greensnark: I recall much scepticism about both the new % and Ctrl-O screens. "Too much information" etc :) 15:52] 03kilobyte * rc7db6edd3515 10/crawl-ref/source/show.cc: Make trees in the Swamp 25% brown, 75% dark green. 15:52] kilobyte has won 15:52] sorry, I was AFW 15:53] * haranp has joined ##crawl-dev 15:53] * ChanServ sets mode: +v haranp 15:53] I'll mark it as "tiles needed" 15:53] git problems again 15:53] haranp: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 15:53] !messages 15:53] (1/2) by said (1d 15h 23m 41s ago): New direction() in tiles isn't slow for me at all -- are you just experiencing general tiles slowness? 15:53] !messages 15:53] (1/1) by said (1d 15h 23m 37s ago): Also hurray for direction() cleanup. 15:53] haranp: ask away 15:54] Hi Haran 15:54] it's rejecting the push 15:54] hi dpeg! 15:54] I have almost all of your changes in 15:54] haranp: you rock! 15:54] @??ancient lich 15:54] ancient lich (16L) | Speed: 12 | HD: 27 | Health: 54-162 | AC/EV: 20/10 | Damage: 2013(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(504), 05fire, 02cold++, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 10944 | Sp: b.cold, paralyse, greater demon, animate dead, iron shot, teleport self / b.draining, animate dead, summon undead, throw frost, crystal spear / b.fire, confuse, haste, b.draining, grea 15:54] haranp: what happens when you do a pull? 15:54] * dpeg builds a statue of Haran. 15:54] on master? 15:54] haranp: what are you trying to push? 15:54] it says 'already up-to-date' 15:54] direction-rewrite 15:55] I've done git merge master there 15:55] after doing git pull --rebase on master 15:55] so are you trying to merge this into master? 15:55] also doing git merge origin/master says already up-to-date 15:55] no 15:55] I'm trying to push into the same branch 15:55] so what happens when you do 'git pull' on that branch? 15:55] * Enne has quit IRC ("cold") 15:56] You asked me to pull without telling me which branch you 15:56] want to merge with, and 'branch.direction-rewrite.merge' in 15:56] your configuration file does not tell me either. 15:56] aha 15:57] git config direction-rewrite.branch.remote origin && git config direction-rewrite.branch.merge direction-rewrite 15:57] git config branch.direction-rewrite.merge refs/heads/direction-rewrite 15:57] who do I believe? :) 15:57] or what greensnark said 15:58] listen to greensnark 15:58] (: 15:58] s/origin/sf/ if you name your remotes 15:58] Well, both will work, but doy's merge setting is more specific and will not fail in weird cases :) 15:58] Or is refs/heads/X automatically assumed now? 15:58] * Mu_ has quit IRC ("Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.") 15:58] in any case, do a pull again after that 15:58] I tried greensnark's 15:58] greensnark: no idea, i was just looking at my .git/config 15:58] and git pull gives the same error message 15:59] hm 15:59] maybe is should be branch.direction-rewrite instead of direction-rewrite.branch ? 15:59] Oh, I got the branch. wrong 15:59] Yeah 15:59] doy's is right :) 15:59] (: 15:59] doy = acclaimed git guru :) 15:59] git pull works now 16:00] so I can git push? 16:00] Yes! 16:00] 03haranp 07direction-rewrite * r553c0cd8d1dc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (15 files): Many more changes to direction(). 16:00] 03haranp 07direction-rewrite * rd9662cfaa691 10/crawl-ref/source/effects.cc: Really add the better ally-attack message. 16:00] haranp: how did you create that local branch, by the way? 16:00] Where are the existing tree colours assigned :P 16:00] 03haranp 07direction-rewrite * rcac99abb0f76 10/crawl-ref/source/ (327 files in 23 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into direction-rewrite 16:00] 03haranp 07direction-rewrite * rdd7057404754 10/crawl-ref/source/files.cc: Merge branch 'direction-rewrite' of ssh://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/crawl-ref/crawl-ref into direction-rewrite 16:00] git checkout -b direction-rewrite 16:00] I have a habit of always specifying the branch to pull from (git pull sf direction-rewrite), it's more typing but safer if you have 369860948603 checkouts on 45689 machines 16:00] haranp: in the future, do 'git checkout -b direction-rewrite origin/direction-rewrite' 16:01] and it'll set all that up for you 16:01] will add to my cheat sheet 16:01] thanks 16:01] dpeg: take a look at the latest push 16:01] doy: in newest git it looks like you can 'git checkout direction-rewrite' and it will do that for you 16:01] there are still a few things missing... 16:01] kilobyte: ah, cool 16:01] kilobyte: That's awesome 16:01] for example prompts for clouds are a bit silly 16:02] (or complain if multiple remotes have that branch, of course) 16:02] I always have trouble explaining that to people new to git 16:02] you can now control the F line properly 16:02] so changes to that should be easy 16:02] haranp: will do in a moment 16:02] greensnark: trees in general: 25% light green, 75% dark green. Trees in Swamp: 25% brown, 75% dark green. 16:02] oh, and check out Apportation :) 16:02] kilobyte: Sounds good 16:03] greensnark: it uses a hash, show.cc:_tree_colour() 16:03] Ahh, interesting 16:05] Shoals can probably keep standard trees, or perhaps even use more bright ones. 16:05] palm trees! 16:05] Shoals doesn't use trees currently, just plants 16:06] For some reason I typed GREEN : BREEN and couldn't make out why the compiler was complaining 16:06] hiya 16:06] due: You have 4 messages. Use !messages to read them. 16:06] Morning due 16:06] I want to keep palm trees for th epotential dessert branch 16:06] If this is okay 16:07] due: it is 16:07] dpeg: The new vaults code won't be ready for 0.6, I don't think 16:07] I mean, it *works* 16:07] I'm not entirely sure about the green/brown thing :/ 16:07] But I still have to write all the subvaults and deal with the monster generation and stuff. 16:08] * greensnark tries green/cyan :P 16:08] Eek, that's dreadful :P 16:08] I am also still dizzy, don't mind if I'm slightly insane. 16:08] * greensnark hands due a tequila shot. 16:08] That should help with the dizziness. 16:08] hooray 16:08] I'm actually going to the doctor shortly. 16:09] due: we mind, being merely slightly insane means you're not qualified for Crawl development 16:09] Oh, sick :/ 16:09] greensnark: what about only darkgreenß 16:09] kilobyte: bugger 16:09] dpeg: That looks a little boring :) 16:09] darkgreen / grey? 16:09] HAAHAH 16:09] What are we talking about now? 16:10] colour of trees in Swamp 16:10] Tree colors for Swamp 16:10] Ah 16:10] Whats wrong with what we've got at the minute? 16:10] darkgreen/darkgrey may work, but plain lightgrey does not 16:10] Yeah, at this point I'm inclined to leave it as is :) 16:10] green /lightgreen is a bit too cheerful for Swamp 16:10] Lightgreen is too cheerful 16:10] But it looks beter than the other stuf I tried 16:11] But 16:11] Speaking from experienc 16:11] Other colours are horrible. 16:11] Yes 16:11] I tried brown/yellow in the Wucad Mu wizlab and blech. 16:11] Unless I change my terminal's notion of brown :P 16:12] Please don't, because mine is still ugly.. 16:12] What does green and darkgrey look like? 16:12] Yeah, I think trees look fine 16:12] Probably all swampy and decaying. 16:12] due. 16:12] Green and darkgrey look weird, but less weird than the other stuff I tried 16:12] okay, night 16:12] But green and lightgreen work better anyway 16:12] I'm inclinded to stick with green and lightngreen then. 16:12] Simply because it's a brand new feature typee 16:12] dpeg, if you have more suggestions, just let me know :) 16:13] and someone needs to work out the interface for tiles 16:13] And perhaps changing the colours of it in random branches might confuse new people. 16:13] * haranp has quit IRC ("leaving") 16:13] Does tiles have a different fire interface? 16:13] I thought it was the same prompts and everything 16:13] Just with added mouseness 16:13] greensnark: tiles *should* have a different interface: they can use the mouse 16:14] Yes, but the basic interface is unchanged 16:14] i.e. if you're an ASCII player, you can still use all your old shortcuts, etc. 16:14] dpeg: giving cigotuvi's monster a mutagenic attack is a brilliant idea, but would require defining him as an actual monste.r 16:14] yes 16:14] due: yeah 16:14] due: Do it, no worries :) 16:14] which I think is probably okay. 16:15] Unless greensnark is finished with the monster->Lua rewrite ;) 16:15] :/ 16:15] Don't remind me of that bit-rotting pile of code :P 16:15] It needs at least 3-4 days of focussed effort 16:15] :) 16:16] It's fine. I was teasing! <3 16:16] And focussed effort involving mon-gear.cc 16:16] Also known as the Black Pit, Moria. 16:17] What was wrong with mon-gear? 16:17] I mean, I know it was bad 16:17] Giant switch blocks assigning items 16:17] Yeah. 16:17] I'd have to write a parser to translate that :P 16:18] giant switch blockss of doom. 16:18] And there are lots of tedious little special cases to trip up an automated converter 16:18] So I'd need to write test scripts to compare before and after equipment :P 16:19] * Disconnected 16:19] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 16:19] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 16:19] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 16:19] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 16:20] greensnark: who wrote this mass? And made sure it worked? 16:20] * Kyrris has quit IRC 16:20] It's like a coral reef :P 16:20] *mess 16:21] Gradually built up :) 16:21] ??octopus king 16:21] octopus king[1/1]: +10,+4 trident of the Octopus King {venom, rElec rPois MR} 16:21] mon-gear is just... disgusting. 16:21] But it's probably one of the sanest and most efficient ways of doing it in C++, no? 16:23] * Disconnected 16:24] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev 16:24] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev 16:24] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 16:24] * Set by AceTetra on Mon Jan 18 12:37:21 16:24] I suppose Brown would be kay, though. 16:24] I thought brown was fine, but it's worse than lightgreen :/ 16:25] Is it? :/ 16:25] Will do comparative screenshots, perhaps. 16:25] It works better in real life :P 16:25] Trees with brown trunks and green leaves vs trees with brown trunks and brown leaves! 16:26] We need a greenbrown colour. 16:26] Make it so! 16:26] greensnark: yes, I noted the bit about using position, like that a lot. But the h^ etc.... I won't comprehend :) 16:26] bit twiddling :P 16:26] I will do screenshots. 16:27] dpeg: Did you see the change to the Lernaean hydra :P 16:27] Once the full compile is done. 16:27] It is hilarious :P 16:27] I KNOW 16:27] I can't wait for someone to try hiding behind a tree again :D 16:27] dpeg: someone stood behind trees and the Lenaean hydra just chilled on the other side while they channelled to death. 16:27] It was disgusting :( 16:28] greensnark: <3 16:28] Also, dpeg, what do you think about actually creating an unrand Entarex and making Maud's behaviour change if you have it? 16:28] not sure :) 16:28] * Twinge_ has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 16:28] if you come up with a cool randart... 16:28] !lm * uniq=the lernaean hydra 16:28] No milestones for * (uniq=the lernaean hydra). 16:28] :D 16:28] !lm * uniq=lernaean hydra 16:28] No milestones for * (uniq=lernaean hydra). 16:28] ogaz: uniq=~lern 16:28] "An ancient sword, looking for Maud." 16:29] dpeg: Yesssss, exactly. 16:29] !lm * uniq=~lern 16:29] Attacks anyone who is not Maud :) 16:29] dpeg: I was thinking more that it was a person who was magiically transformed into a sword. 16:29] dpeg: No! 16:29] Oooh, it could be a dancing weapon. 16:29] It recites love poems to its wielder, assuming they are Maud 16:29] greensnark: <3 16:29] Custom noisy sword, ++. 16:30] but then we lose jpeg as a coder, she'd spend the rest of her time writing Entarex love poems 16:30] Why is this an issue/ 16:30] It also explains why Maud is so keen to get Entarex back :P 16:30] Okay, I will do this. 16:30] now??? 16:30] well, who's guilty of the Singing Sword? 16:30] Unrand with custom speech. 16:30] No! 16:30] I mean, right now? 16:30] No, not right now. 16:31] kilobyte: hey, jpeg and I added a ton of speech for the singing sword! 16:31] Did you see I committed the item lib changes! 16:31] greensnark: to keep the dirty secret hidden? 16:31] Metatables! 16:31] 1. [2010-01-24] moq the Destroyer (L16 MuWz) killed the 27-headed Lernaean hydra on turn 75326. (Swamp:5) 16:31] due: yes! 16:31] Oh, dpeg. 16:31] * greensnark is off, back later.;. 16:31] dpeg, harpies. :/ 16:31] !lm * uniq=~lern -tv 16:31] 1. moq, XL16 MuWz, T:75326 (milestone) requested for FooTV. 16:31] greensnark: Ciao! 16:31] due: not working? 16:31] kilobyte: do you want to remove it or improve itß 16:31] dpeg: the speech and idea rocks, the sword sucks bigtime 16:31] kilobyte: I agree. 16:31] dpeg: Well, they're slightly grindy. On my SpBe, I decided to leave my food outside of the branch so that it wouldn't get stolen, because losing my food was such a massive, massive issue. 16:32] why was moq using a staff of energy on a mummy :/ 16:32] Which means that you have to leave the branch whenever you want to eat. 16:32] due: hm, what to do? 16:32] due: which is a food problem in itself?! 16:32] dpeg: Well, SpBe is aways a food problem, but usually I can manage that. 16:32] I just have to take into consideration that a monster steals my food. 16:33] I know there's been a lot of work on the food theft mechanism, but what about just giving them a hungering attack, like hungry ghosts? I'm unsure. 16:33] due: perhaps harpies are more interesting for characters with chunks? 16:33] !lg * killer=~lern 16:33] Oh, it's interesting. 16:33] No games for * (killer=~lern). 16:33] kilobyte: if you have a cool idea to help the singing sword, say it! 16:33] doy: None yet :( 16:33] The Singing Sword should randomly animate itself and kill monsters. 16:33] @??lernaean hydra 16:33] the Lernaean hydra (08D) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(120), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 7599. 16:33] at the very least, it needs a buff; a +7 unbranded long sword is pretty bad 16:34] Agree. 16:34] would be nice if whatever is it the sword gets, it'd fit with the singing 16:34] dpeg: So yeah, I just don't know; the harpies themselves are already really interesting, I just found the food theft infuriating annoying rather than fun annoying, but easily dealt with 16:34] I've used the singing sword through midgame repeatedly, not everything needs to be really strong 16:35] nrook: but unbranded is not so hot 16:35] if you wield the singing sword, 't' should not "shout" but "sing" :) 16:35] :D 16:35] 'tt' 16:35] most brands would be unfitting for it 16:35] and make the sword perform better 16:35] kilobyte: yes 16:36] perhaps just increase the enchantment to +46934769386? 16:36] "singing brand" 16:36] Does extra damage against silent monsters 16:36] hm, what about singing does animate it? 16:36] the singing sword could be a scimitar 16:36] what if you cast Silence? 16:36] kilobyte: You are prevented from it. 16:36] it dies? 16:36] the singing sword scowls horribly at you 16:36] nrook: That is an idea. 16:37] Actually, brown is okay for the Swamp's trees. 16:37] dpeg: But yeah, otherwise, I love Shoals. 16:38] dpeg: But losing rations on an early Spriggan will most likely make people do the same thing as me (leave food behind at the door). 16:38] due: yes, Shoals and Slime are the most round branches right now, imo 16:38] Swamp isn't bad, actually. 16:39] and Lair is really visually interesting now. 16:39] Especially now that the water attack bonus is gone, Swamp is less grindy. 16:39] Bah 16:40] Oh 16:40] dpeg: Do you want damaging Slime walls in Slime? We can do this quickly and easily for 0.6. 16:40] Also, are we going to branch 0.6 soon? 16:41] so yes, all of Lair is cooler now 16:41] due: hm, I would like that, yes 16:41] due: do you know if we increased death ooze generation in Slime? 16:41] they are a tad too rare 16:41] I haven't seen any changes to it recently, but that can get turned up. 16:41] What sort of damage do we want from the walls? 16:41] i thought we did 16:41] at some point 16:41] Proximity damage only, or acid-flavour damage? 16:41] but might have just been a fr or something 16:41] doy: Not since I started writing the play-testing posts. 16:42] due: no, it would've been older 16:42] but I cannot remember 16:42] well, thematically, slime wall damage should be acidic, but I don't want rAcid to prevent it -- what to do? 16:42] Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2689-gc7db6ed (16.2)! 16:42] dpeg: why not? 16:43] rCorr should prevent it, otherwise it'll be infuriating. 16:43] doy: the slime walls should do damage in order to prevent the "dig tunnel" scum against the royal jelly! 16:43] it is a gameplay nerf, hidden as a flavour bit :) 16:43] Well, sure 16:43] But unresistable acid damage is bad. 16:43] Especially when you already have to dig tunnels to get to the different bubbles. 16:44] dpeg: the damage should stack for each adjacent acid wall tile 16:44] okay, each adjacent wall of slime does 1d4 acidic damage, halved if rCorrß 16:44] something like that would be fine 16:44] I think that's good. 16:44] well, the player would dig something like this: 16:44] xxxxxxxxxxxxxx... 16:44] .............@... 16:44] xxxxxxxxxxxxxx... 16:44] to minimise wall damage 16:45] but still, better than nothing 16:45] also, can the RJ spawn jellies behind the @? 16:45] really, royal jelly spawns shouldn't be required to be so close to it, if there's no room for them 16:46] being able to limit the spawns by having the royal jelly in an enclosed area like that is a decent part of the issue 16:46] a completely different solution would be that the RJ spawns can spawn right inside wall, jelly and all 16:47] yes 16:47] see ^ 16:47] Is there an easy way to generate altars using wiz mode? 16:47] henryci: &_ 16:47] * eith_ has joined ##crawl-dev 16:48] We should branch really soon. But before that, we should make a list of what's to be done for 0.6. 16:49] how about creating an inaccessible altar? 16:49] henryci: Best bet woul dbe to force-place using &L the inaccessible altar vault. 16:50] henryci: you can also add PLACE: D:1 to some altar vaults 16:50] due: what do you thikn about the aggressive RJ spawns? 16:51] where does &L gets its map names from? 16:52] ah, it may not work 16:52] dpeg: They can kill anyone very quickly. 16:52] does it? 16:52] Yes 16:53] henryci: the name: string on the vault in question 16:53] !lg * place=slime:6 killer!=the royal jelly 16:53] 116. minced the Warrior (L18 SETm), worshipper of Makhleb, splashed by acid on Slime:6 on 2010-01-16, with 182128 points after 50316 turns and 4:28:27. 16:53] due: well, but we all kill the RJ honestly in the open, noß 16:53] dpeg: I've never tried killing RJ in the open. :) 16:53] henryci: part of the string is enough, although the prompt should really mention this 16:53] boo! :) 16:53] * eith has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 16:53] !lg * place=slime:6 killer!=the royal jelly s=killer 16:53] 116 games for * (place=slime:6 killer!=the royal jelly): 38x an acid blob, 35x a royal jelly, 16x , 15x an azure jelly, 8x a death ooze, 2x a great orb of eyes, 1x an orc warrior, 1x a very large slime creature 16:54] !lg * place=slime:6 killer!~royal s=killer 16:54] 81 games for * (place=slime:6 killer!~royal): 38x an acid blob, 16x , 15x an azure jelly, 8x a death ooze, 2x a great orb of eyes, 1x a very large slime creature, 1x an orc warrior 16:54] dpeg: we got too many new features with badly unstable code to branch right now IMHO, I'd evict new features to side branches for now 16:54] Is there an altar vault defined in vaults.des? 16:54] no 16:55] dpeg: since branching right now means either 0.6 or trunk will degreade 16:55] dat/des/variable/altar.des 16:55] vaults.des is purely for the vaults branch 16:55] kilobyte: I think I agree. This is why I want some discussion about what goes into 0.6 before branching. 16:55] kilobyte: What's wrong with just moving 0.6 to a branch? 16:55] And not merging features into it? 16:55] I see. 16:55] awesome thanks. 16:55] NAME: general_overflow_altar 16:55] That's the inaccessible one 16:55] due: we'd have to cherry-pick 90% commits 16:55] kilobyte: So? 16:56] kilobyte: It'll at least enforce the feature freeze. 16:57] we can also get feature freeze by discipline! 16:57] henryci: does it work? 16:57] don't have /des/ 16:59] henryci: are you working with a recent trunk? 16:59] I thought so. Let me verify. 17:00] henryci: if so, you should have the des files, only in a different place than before 17:01] i agree with all new features going on branches now, and keeping master for 0.6 things only 17:01] last checkin I have is from 1/18 17:02] so I asume this is the latest branch. 17:02] err 17:02] so this is .6 17:02] I'm on branch master. 17:02] henryci: what are your contents of dat/ ? Many des files or a des/ folder? 17:03] many des files. 17:03] that's old :) 17:03] doesn't matter, the altar vaults you want are in altar.des 17:03] simply take an unaccessible vault and add PLACE: D:1 17:04] git pull brought me up to date 17:04] by 'old' 17:04] you mean it's like '5 days old'. 17:04] alternatively, search for "altar" in entry.des and add WEIGHT: 100000 to a vault with an inaccessible altar (there are a few, the one with fire/water in the corner will be easiest) 17:04] I added the RJ spawn idea to the Slime wiki. 17:04] And I made a Singing Sword wiki. 17:05] I don't think either of these should go into 0.6. Simply because it will attract more cognitive load that should be focused on 0.6. 17:05] henryci: that's pretty old around here 17:05] (: 17:05] henryci: anc-ient! 17:05] but that's not a problem for your Ctrl-O changes 17:07] what do you think about swapping ^O and &? 17:07] ok, now I'v got what I need. 17:07] I'm back 17:07] thanks guys. 17:07] so that we have all of our informational pages on %^& 17:08] dpeg: If we just do proximity damage, I think that's a nerf as it is 17:08] doy: good idea 17:08] due: what does proximity damage mean herE? 17:08] henryci: we thank you! 17:09] dpeg: Being close to the walls. 17:14] guys, i'm getting red messages on tiles: "ch_force_autopickup failed". should i report that on the tracker? 17:15] No 17:15] It's fixed :) 17:15] hehe alright 17:15] To fix it localy 17:15] go into dat/lua/ and edit pickup.lua 17:16] Oh, no, you can't. 17:16] Hm. 17:16] ?? 17:16] [1/2911]: 17:16] Bah, will have to update the CDO binaries. 17:16] ops lol 17:17] no worries i'll wait for the fix 17:19] * eith_ has quit IRC (Client Quit) 17:19] * Eifel has left ##crawl-dev 17:19] * eith has joined ##crawl-dev 17:21] due: yes, it is a nerf. But as I said above, it will attract comments and perhaps a discussion about how this is not the proper nerf, hence the cognitive load. 17:23] Hm. 17:25] So, let's add to wikis whatever we have to say and do it for 0.7. 17:25] Where is Ashenzari, btw? 17:25] Okay! 17:25] I'd love the Vaults changes to go in. 17:26] But currently, the monster load isn't high enough, and I'm not sure how to balance it properly. 17:28] see it positive: that means we have content for 0.7 right away :) 17:28] We already have the holy monsters overhaul 17:28] yes, there is a bit 17:28] holy monsters, vaults, div god 17:30] zin overhaul 17:30] What do you think of the new swamp, btw? 17:31] haven't seen it 17:31] ds 17:31] right! 17:31] :o 17:32] if we wanted, we could make a mini release right after 0.6 :) 17:32] you could call it... 0.6.1 17:32] well 17:32] holy monsters couldn't go in that 17:32] !tell by Is your godconducts refactory in any way related to the idea of tracking more conducts? 17:32] dpeg: OK, I'll let by know. 17:33] 0.6.1 should be for fixups and cleanups. 17:33] nrook: no, of course not 17:33] dpeg: No, but we discussed that earlier, or at least ,sorear and I did 17:33] or you could just call it 0.7, and merely have 0.7 come out quickly 17:33] What you want should be pretty easy. 17:33] !!!! 17:33] I got one of my tree levels. :D 17:33] :) 17:33] dpeg: I changed the pools layout to occasionally place trees, it looks ace :) 17:34] greensnark asked if the trees in Swamp couldn't be bushes or plants sometimes. 17:34] due: yes, I read that. 17:34] Good thinking. 17:34] Speaking of something completely unrelated, I think something should be done about mystic blast. 17:34] Someone else had that idea 17:34] Not sure who 17:34] nrook: What's wrong with it? 17:34] (I've been waiting for a while for a lull in the conversation, but you guys keep talking!) 17:34] i agree, they talk nonstop 17:34] it's a decent, unresistable conjuration available in a very common book 17:35] And? 17:35] so why would any conjurer pick up earth, ever? 17:35] he says it's too good for the availability 17:35] LCS/ 17:35] Then we should tone down the availability of power. 17:36] I think it's too good for any availability greater than "in annihilations," to be honest. 17:36] Earth would be a lot more interesting if people could dip into it for a decent, irresistable spell. 17:36] nrook: despite the range 4 nerf' 17:36] But with mystic blast, there really isn't any motivation to do so. 17:36] You can get Mystic Blast with Sif Muna very quickly and very easily. 17:38] dpeg: IMB is at range 4 now? 17:38] yes 17:38] even so, you don't need to have a great irresistable spell, or even a good one. It just needs to be non-terrible. 17:39] Most enemies won't resist your attacks, and for them you can use your specialty. 17:39] how does imb compare to ice bolt? 17:39] (or whatever we're calling it these days) 17:39] nrook: even in 0.5, ice bolt is about as good as IMB 17:39] I actually like it better because of the +1 range 17:39] IMB just has a really good reputation, in my opinion. 17:39] ice bolt is probably a little bit better, but it involves another school 17:40] but then, I don't like fire conjurers as much as ice conjurers 17:40] ice is a lot more fun than fire 17:40] (: 17:40] Ice is really fun, fire is boring. 17:40] this is really only an issue for the fire conjurers, because the ice ones have ice bolt 17:40] fire needs more explosions 17:40] fire conjurers have bolt of magma 17:41] anyway, what is this conversation about? 17:41] but afaik nobody uses it, since mystic blast is much easier to cast (no earth) and good enough 17:41] replace ice storm with something more thematic, and ditch bolt of fire 17:41] and give fire more explosions 17:41] (: 17:41] nrook: Heh, so? 17:41] We just make IMB rare. 17:42] That works if it's rare enough so that, say, only 1/8 casters will get it by the middle of the game. But even Tukima isn't that rare, is it? 17:42] (You could put it back in Annihilations, but I don't think that's on the table :p) 17:42] I don't get what the issue is. 17:42] IMB is too good 17:42] OR 17:42] IMB overshadows other good spells, so nobody uses them? 17:42] Or both? 17:42] no and no? 17:42] the latter, I think 17:43] ice bolt is better, sticky flame is better 17:43] it overshadows maybe stone arrow 17:43] IMB isn't really better than ice bolt, it's just easy to cast 17:43] I don't get why that is an issue. 17:43] I don't like IMB in annihilations because it's not annihilatory enough 17:43] ogaz: but it is powerful 17:43] ogaz: Agree, I always found an XL4 spell in annihilations odd. 17:43] demonology has call imp 17:43] IMB got nerfed in 0.5 with the spell range changes. 17:44] I don't see what the problem is 17:44] my point is "mystic blast discourages conjurers from expanding into other schools by giving them a cheap and effective irresistable option" 17:44] Me neither, to be honest? 17:44] due: you should use some voodoo to make a vault with seasons 17:44] nrook: So? 17:44] fire conjurers will still need to expand into another school 17:44] unless you want to kill orbs of fire with IMB 17:44] nrook: They're only cheapening themselves. 17:44] so nobody really uses earth 17:45] I don't think it's our responsibility, they're all quite viable. 17:45] well, the actual issue is that poison arrow is the only thing that keeps poison competitive, but it's also enough to choke earth magic 17:45] s 17:45] erm 17:45] ignore that 17:45] Does anyone know how stealth and stealth training are affected by heavy armours? 17:45] poison arrow is at least in theory rare, though 17:46] And poison arrow is XL6 and quite powerful. 17:46] dpeg: in 0.5, you cannot train stealth until you have 3*ev in armour skill 17:46] This is a really familiar argument. 17:46] er, 3*ev penalty 17:46] In my own opinion, not every school *must* be as viable nor as popular as every other school; they all have positives and negatives, strengths and weaknesses. 17:47] I still disagree with the notion that all characters should be able to deal with early game threats (poison, cold and fire resistant). They are this for the exact reason that the early game *needs* threats. 17:47] due: but that does not refer to HEAVY/LIGHT armours as such... greensnark said there would be an effect like that. 17:47] dpeg: I don't know, sorry? 17:48] erm, due <--> ogaz 17:48] :) 17:48] due: interesting threats are less "the player can't deal with them" than they are "they can deal with the player" 17:48] So, people think that IMB is super powerful, and wlil pass up the Earth school (which itself has some amazingly powerful spells), because of this misconception? 17:49] I think the best we can do in this situation is to make IMB rarer again (take it out of Power, maybe, or decrease the commonness of power), and issue an advisory. 17:49] how does imb compare to, say, bolt of iron? 17:49] imo, IMB is not particularly powerful, and what passes up the earth school is poison arrow 17:49] "STOP! Iskenderun's Mystic Blast is *not* the spell you think it is!" 17:49] doy: different niche? 17:49] "If you are using IMB for any of the following reasons, you *should* think again: 17:49] TGWi: different how? 17:49] etc, etc. 17:49] doy: 50% more MP, hella more hunger? 17:49] I assume it's much worse, given that it's power 4 rather than power 6 17:49] TGWi: whatever the level 4 earth spell is 17:49] Stone Arrow. 17:49] doy: there is none 17:50] stone arrow 17:50] there's stone arrow which is levle 3 17:50] ??stone arrow 17:50] level 3 17:50] Stone arrow is level 4, no? 17:50] it's only available in two starting books 17:50] 3 17:50] stone arrow used to be 4, at least 17:50] it's 3 17:50] stone arrow[1/1]: A level 3 earth/conjuration spell. Found in the book of Geomancy, starting book for EEs, and also in the Book of Conjurations [fire], starting book for fire-based conjurers. Does 2d12 dmg at max power. Does massive damage from ghosts for some reason. 17:50] i don't know if it was changed 17:50] damnit guys it's level 3 17:50] :[ 17:50] dpeg: sorry, what I said referred only to heavy armours, you could train stealth from the beginning in light. I don't know how it works in 0.6 17:50] I think it was always level 3 17:50] ogaz: thank you very much 17:50] nobody knows what level stone arrow is because nobody ever has any reason to cast it =/ 17:51] nrook: cj[f], ee 17:51] It's level 3 now and has been for as long as I can recall 17:51] ee definitely uses it because it's their first long range conjuration 17:51] nrook: It's an excellent starting spell for conjurers lookin to go to EE. 17:51] and if people don't play ee, it's not stone arrow's fault 17:51] i guess my knowledge is kinda weak since i've never seriously played ee 17:51] (: 17:51] (except ee, nobody plays ee but that's not-yeah) 17:52] i think the problem with ee is mostly that it's based around just raw damage, but fire does that better already 17:52] we need to fix fire, i think 17:52] also stone arrow has a bad (probably unfair) reputation 17:52] the elements need diversification as much as anything else 17:53] ice is plenty different, so's air 17:53] earth is pretty different too, though 17:53] it's just poison's gimmick is "almost being earth" and fire only has conjurations 17:54] my point is just that more people would go into earth were earth the goto place for irresistable damage, but with irresistable damage everywhere that isn't really a benefit 17:55] is it bad if an element can't compete in conjurations? 17:55] earth's conjurations aren't bad, and whether conjurers use them, EE types do 17:56] TGWi: did you get your access? 17:56] earth has shatter, not mud storm 17:56] eronarn: yeah 17:56] earth only HAS two conjurations, yeah? 17:56] 3 17:56] and bolt of magma but shut up 17:56] I was actually referring to stone arrow, iron bolt, and LCS 17:56] orite 17:57] also there's several earth/tmut damage spells; I'm not sure how it all works out for EE because I've rarely felt inclined to play it 17:57] hmm, are books like the Monster Manual artefacts? 17:57] No 17:57] it would be fun to have more medium-rarity books like that with goofy themes 17:58] They're just books :) 18:00] does EE have early-game issues of their exp being split too much between earth, tmut, and conj? 18:00] ee keeps conjuration off I think 18:00] and no more than IE splits it between ice/coj/enc 18:00] IE doesn't need to raise ench early, though 18:01] does ee need conj early? 18:01] a book of really loud spells! 18:01] I have no idea, that's why I'm asking 18:01] nrook: 18:01] ??book of tempests 18:01] book of tempests[1/1]: Spells: Static Discharge, Lightning Bolt, Fireball, Shatter 18:01] oh, that already exists 18:01] :P 18:01] there are already a bunch of goofy midgame books that nobody uses because they're so goofy 18:02] we all know that spells need love, both local (spell by spell) and global (the whole schools) 18:03] dpeg: Sure, but there hav ebeen a lot of voices screaming for us to make all the schools inherently the same, and I don't think that is a good approach. 18:03] how about a thief's handbook! 18:03] apportation, swiftness, control teleport, lrd, invisibility 18:03] due: absolutely 18:04] nrook: passwall? 18:04] passwall, yeah! 18:04] due: who screamed that? that's stupid 18:04] TGWi: A variety of people. 18:04] nrook: propose it, it's nice 18:04] we now also have noises and ranges to differentiate spells/schools 18:04] LRD? wha? 18:04] isn't that loud? 18:05] well, not every thief is subtle 18:05] TGWi: it is very easy to slip into that mode of thinking 18:05] it's loud, but it's the only way to break into certain places 18:05] TGWi: dynamite --> tresor 18:05] fair enough 18:05] * Iainuki_ has joined ##crawl-dev 18:06] call it "book of burglary" though 18:07] dpeg: Add the conducts thing to the 0.7 wishlist, I might give it a go. 18:07] TGWi: that's a better name :) 18:07] due: cool but perhaps by already has a plan :) 18:07] dpeg: Not sure, perhaps :) 18:08] due: but we really need conducts and piety for exploration to move on to some cool new god or god changes. 18:08] How does Armour training work right now? I couldn't get it out of Henzell. 18:08] dpeg: Easily done by a quick overhaul, I think. 18:08] ??armour skill[2] 18:08] armour skill[2/4]: The EV penalty of a piece of armour is reduced by (Armour skill * strength) / 60, but cannot be reduced to less than half (round towards zero) of its original value; -3 EV armour always gives at least -1 EV. 18:08] ??armour skill[3] 18:08] armour skill[3/4]: The chance of exercising the armour skill when a monster hits and deals more than 0 damage is equal to: (body armour weight)/2000 and is capped at 50%. You have an equal chance of exercising it one or two units. 18:09] ??armour skill[4] 18:09] armour skill[4/4]: The armour skill also has a (body armour weight)/6000 chance of being excersied 1 point every 20 turns or so. This chance is capped at 1 in 6. 18:09] [3] and [4] 18:09] thanks 18:09] ooh, how about a book of spells which make you harder to kill? 18:09] as of 0.5 I think 18:09] so there is NO reference to HEAVY/LIGHT here? 18:09] nrook: ozo... 18:09] stoneskin, ozocubu's armour, phase shift, death's door 18:09] dpeg: it only trains in heavy armour 18:09] ok 18:09] stoneskin and ozo in the same book is bleah 18:09] dpeg: It's also like the stoneskin FR, "please let undead use it. you could call it XYZ instead. but please let them use it!". 18:10] dpeg: which is so totally different from "stoneskin is boring, let's make it interesting". 18:10] what's like that? 18:10] alright, replace ozo with dmsl 18:10] nrook: cool! 18:10] throw in borgnjor 18:10] dmsl is rubbish 18:10] do borgjnor instead :D 18:10] do both 18:11] * ogaz uses dmsl 18:11] am I right in assuming that it's really easy to add new books? 18:11] that makes it sound like a drug. 18:11] nrook: not really easy, but relatively. 18:11] anyway 18:11] are we all for turning down the commonness oof book of power? 18:11] now that it has IMB? 18:11] ??book of power 18:11] book of power[1/1]: Contains Animate Dead, Venom Bolt, Bolt of Iron, Invisibility, Mass Confusion and Poisonous Cloud. 18:11] due: yes, you are correct, as I said. Stand strong! 18:11] due: sure 18:11] I liked book of power before though 18:11] well, it's either that or put ood somewhere else 18:12] it was like a list of spells that people don't use 18:12] No, OOD is good for Annihilations. 18:12] er, mystic blast 18:12] Annihilations isn't full. 18:12] We could always move it back to Annihilations. 18:12] that was like a typo, except I typed something completely different from what I meant 18:12] how full is full? 18:12] TGWi: Nine spells. 18:12] book of the sky is just completely nuts 18:12] ??book of the sky 18:12] book of the sky[1/1]: Summon Elemental, Insulation, Airstrike, Flight, Silence, Lightning Bolt, Deflect Missiles, Conjure Ball Lightning. 18:12] Is it nine spells? 18:12] we could have a book of medium-sized conjurations 18:12] and that's only eight, what 18:12] Ah, 8. 18:13] 8, Annihilations has 6 18:13] it's kind of weird that vehumet gives the book of power, anyway, since it has a bunch of not-conjurations in it 18:13] why did I think it was nine? Maybe because of all the level nine spells. 18:13] 6 is a good book size 18:13] book of the sky reminds me: summon elemental should probably leave geomancy, as there's no way to train up summoning to actually get it castable without abyssing you or something 18:13] Spell book overhauls -> 0.7. 18:13] okay 18:13] So, either make power less common, or move IMb back to Annihilations. 18:13] dpeg, thoughts? 18:14] due: yeah, that's true. Just make power less common then, not too much collateral 18:14] due: on what? My thoughts are: no changes based on lukewarm irc discussions :) 18:14] I lean towards making power less common, or leaving it as-is. 18:14] lukewarm irc discussions are the best 18:14] Rather: what's the limit for Armour training, depending on your armour? 18:14] TGWi: no, changes coming from them can lead to an annoying amount of work. 18:15] 3*EVP? 18:15] dpeg: it stops training passively at that point, but I think it still trains if you take damage while wearing it 18:15] anybody can confirm? 18:16] another book idea: the Tome of the Dragon, which contains dragony spells! (after this I'll stop, though this is very addicting) 18:17] flight, cause fear, bolt of fire, dragon form 18:17] nrook: no don't 18:17] this is fun 18:17] nrook: wiki! :) 18:18] dpeg: I don't have page-creation powers :( Somebody else will have to do it for me 18:18] I bet this could be moved to ##crawl, too, since it isn't like there are real Design Decisions being made, and everybody will have fun ideas 18:19] nrook: I can compile these if you say them again 18:19] nrook: not an updater? 18:19] dpeg: oh hey, I am, apparently, according to mantis 18:19] did not know this! 18:20] * SiberSchool has joined ##crawl-dev 18:20] yeah, I am 18:20] nrook: expect new pages now 18:20] sweet, now I'm officially part of the coterie of medium-skilled players who hang out in ##crawl-dev and say things every once in a while 18:21] dpeg: with 18 armour skill in plate, I managed to train armour by having a stone giant hit me(though dodging trained faster) 18:21] brainstorm>magic>new page "Books," right? 18:21] (this was using wizmode 0.5) 18:22] or brainstorm>magic>spells>book ideas? or what? wiki is perplexing 18:22] TGWi: either of these are okay 18:22] I can confirm that, my storm dragon armour games generally have 15 armour and like 10% training 18:22] WIKI! <3 18:22] ogaz: what does that confirm? :) 18:22] TGWi: if you haven't started yet, I can do it (it turns out I do have wiki privileges) 18:22] ok, cool, you do it 18:23] I still haven't fixed the of flame of flame deaths 18:23] I hav eno idea what to do about them. 18:23] Oh wait 18:24] dpeg: that you can train armour non-passively by having things damage you even once your armour skill is >=3*EVP 18:24] ogaz: thanks! 18:25] I am trying to set up a completely new Armour training, but for this I need to know the current one. 18:26] hmm, do I want to start brainstorm:magic:books:start? 18:26] or just brainstorm:magic:books? 18:27] nrook: book of immunity: resist poison, insulation, see invisible, deflect missiles 18:27] the latter 18:27] my idea is that armour training *only* depends on (total damage)/(armour skill), up to constants. What do you think? 18:28] ogaz: do you also know about Dodging trainingß 18:29] dpeg: no, sorry. All I know is it doesn't train if your armour is <3*evp and you're in heavy 18:29] that might suffice 18:31] do we agree that (1) Armour training is a bit too slow, (2) the passive training is bad, (3) the active training is scummable (hence also not ideal)? 18:31] TGWi: Statue Form? 18:31] ooh, that can replace dmsl 18:31] * henryci has quit IRC 18:32] every skill is scummable? 18:32] maybe ice form for sinv too, for the elemental resistance 18:32] purge: some are worse than others 18:32] that also puts it at 2 enchantments and 2 transmutations, none sharing auxiliary schools <3 18:32] purge: standing in a sea of tiny monsters with full pool, doing nothing == bad 18:33] TGWi: put in ring of flames, and you can resist every element :) 18:33] nrook: yeah :D 18:33] ??statue form 18:33] statue form[1/2]: Grants great AC (17 + earth/2), a 50% HP boost, and +2 Str, but makes the base action cost of an action 15 instead of 10, similar to the slow spell. Available slots: weapon, cloak, helmet, boots. Provides rPois, rElec, rN+. Huge unarmed damage: base = unarmed_skill + 12 + str. In statue form, {stoneskin} adds more AC than normal. 18:34] nrook: cold? 18:34] dpeg: ice form! 18:34] sure 18:35] I need a name for the stoneskin/phase shift/borgnjor/etc book, too 18:35] I have the "book of survival", but that's a bad name 18:35] book of defense, if you're boring 18:35] no 18:35] book of skins 18:35] that's sort of neat 18:35] book of durability? 18:35] have to take out borgnjor if you're going to call it the book of skins, though 18:35] needs more creepy 18:36] why take out borgnjor? 18:36] * dpeg has quit IRC ("sleep") 18:36] book of flesh 18:36] oh my god, book of flesh! 18:36] haha, that's a fun name! 18:36] you have to put cigottuvi's degeneration in in that case 18:36] stoneskin sublimation simulacrum 18:36] okay, time to go out <3 18:36] degeneration 18:36] g'day due 18:36] TGWi: oooh, true. 18:36] g'day? 18:36] you're not australian :o 18:36] g'night 18:37] g'night due then 18:37] !tell mu_ Working on it, thanks! 18:37] due: OK, I'll let mu_ know. 18:37] I'll be back in an hour ;) 18:37] everyone is australian while working on crawl 18:37] uh, good evening then 18:37] * mincedd has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 18:38] * Siber has quit IRC (Connection timed out) 18:38] book of contact: confusing touch, freeze, vamp drain 18:38] um 18:39] sticky flame, soon! 18:39] yeah :D 18:39] shock :P 18:39] shock? 18:39] :p 18:40] how often do you cast shock not adjacent to an enemy? :) 18:40] ah, heh 18:40] static discharge 18:40] confusing touch, freeze, vamp drain, static discharge, sticky flame soon sounds like a good book 18:40] I don't know if sticky getting nerfed that hard is a good idea; doesn't that end up with fire being just worse than ice? 18:40] ogaz: at the same time as making more spells I think 18:41] sticky is already really strong, and this makes it more fun imo 18:41] reavers don't care about the range problem 18:42] sticky flame needs at least a range of 2 18:42] why 18:42] anyway, it'll be getting perfect accuracy, too! 18:42] nrook, are you writing these down or should I be? 18:43] because it cannot be used with conjure flame if range is 1 18:43] purge: heh 18:43] TGWi: I am! 18:43] nrook: cool 18:43] would book of bolts be overpowered? 18:43] it might already exist, actually 18:43] cold, fire, venom 18:43] shock 18:43] also we ran out of bolts with the name changes! 18:44] is magma a real bolt? 18:44] s/shock/lightning 18:44] I'd include one of fire or magma 18:44] maybe even magma, since it represents earth as well 18:44] I can't remember if magma is actually a bolt or not 18:44] lightning bolt, venom bolt, bolt of magma, bolt of cold 18:44] it is 18:45] bolt of ice makes vastly more sense 18:45] ? 18:45] what is a 'bolt of cold'? 18:45] ok, that's true 18:45] how would a bolt of ice go through people, though? 18:45] without killing them? 18:46] but if it were made of ice it would have to be partially irresistible 18:46] and that would be hella OP 18:46] oh, I see 18:46] hrm 18:46] nrook: it's not like a bolt of magma is any differnet 18:46] different 18:46] it's molten rock at several hundred degrees 18:46] but yeah, you can't even say "it's made of energy" because cold isn't energy 18:46] elly: oh, yeah, that's true, magma doesn't make any sense either 18:47] what's the theme you're going for? 18:47] http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:books 18:47] well so 18:47] a bolt of cold _could_ work 18:48] create a localized area of very low-temperature air and throw it at someone 18:48] ooh, I like 18:48] elly: yeah I thought of that too 18:48] * Yeznik has joined ##crawl-dev 18:48] but it has to be an air spell then 18:48] it's true 18:48] well, which book is this for? 18:48] Book of Bolts? :P 18:48] book of bolts 18:48] aha, okay 18:48] not even kidding 18:48] it wasn't my idea :p 18:48] what are the existing bolts? 18:48] sorry :P 18:49] okay, well, the 'Bolt of foo' name theme sounds a little bit silly when carried to that extreme 18:49] ok so ignore that book 18:49] Bolt of bolts 18:49] well, there's a good theme in there though 18:50] * SiberSchool is now known as Siber 18:50] it's more or less the book of hard-hitting single-target spells 18:50] right? 18:50] bolts are the multi-target ones 18:50] oh 18:52] in 0.5, some were multi-target and some single; I think in 0.6 only every bolt is multi-target 18:52] also I like the idea of a book of bolts, vehumet could gift it instead of power 18:52] * Kyrris has joined ##crawl-dev 18:52] oh, woah, you're right 18:53] okay, well 18:53] vehumet is the summoner god too 18:53] Every time someone says "woah", I hear "I know kung fu." 18:53] and we could make a low-level general conjurations book instead of book of conjurations 18:53] really power should contain a couple summons 18:53] purge: right, which is why he also gives book of summonings 18:53] hrm 18:53] Really, Vehumet should stop giving summoner books. 18:53] he gives summ books if you have more summoning 18:53] 'multi-target spells' isn't a cohesive theme in the same way that the first three books on that page are themes 18:54] He's perfect for conjurers. He doesn't give summoners anything but a wizardry bonus. 18:54] summ books? you mean book? 18:54] multi-target spells vaguely strikes me as something like 'Tome of Slaughter' 18:54] tome of the dragon is a work of art 18:54] purge: what the hell are you talking about 18:54] callings, summonings, demonology 18:54] oh thats right 18:54] oh, I assumed purge was just insulting the book of demonology 18:55] :P 18:55] i don't play summoners 18:55] well haven't in years 18:55] demonology is an awful book, from what people who actually play summoners say 18:55] is there already something like a Book of Protection? 18:55] I hear demonic horde is fun 18:55] the book of demonic horde 18:55] ??demonology 18:55] demonology[1/1]: Abjuration, Recall, Call Imp, Summon Demon, Demonic Horde, Summon Greater Demon. Cannot be read unless you are a level 10 summoner and level 6 spellcaster, or a Vehumite. Cannot be acquired except by "I give up, heres a random book." Vehumet's third gift to summoners and sixth to conjurers. 18:55] elly: I don't think so 18:55] Book of Immunity has elemental resists and stuff; what about physical damage resists? 18:56] see also: greater demon 18:56] (are there enough of those to care about?) 18:56] Castable spirit status would be nice. 18:56] elly: book of skins is up there 18:56] oh, so it is 18:56] Book of Reshaping 18:56] elly: I can think of 3: stoneskin, ozocubu's armour, and condensation shield. The problem is, you can't have stoneskin and ozocubus simultaneously 18:56] the book of dreams 18:56] nrook: ooh, I like 18:56] I have no idea what the book of dreams would contain, though 18:57] a random selection of spells each time you find it? :) 18:57] other than ensorcelled hibernation :p 18:57] (yes, I know that's hard) 18:57] book of dreams with EH <3 18:57] intoxication? 18:57] intoxication, maybe, yeah 18:58] shadow creatures! 18:58] Intox, EH, tame beasts, polymorph other 18:58] flight? :P 18:58] And shadow creatures, yeah. 18:58] kyrris' are nice too 18:58] and shadow creatures! 18:58] That's a good set of dreamy five. 18:58] indeed, I'll add it 18:58] * Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 18:58] which five? 18:59] tm/pois, ice/ench, ench, tm, summ 18:59] Intox, EH, tame beasts, polymorph other, shadow creatures. 18:59] yeah 18:59] no flight? 18:59] ?? polymorph other 18:59] polymorph other[1/6]: Changes monsters into other monsters, likely to be harder, but without equipment. When used on players by monsters or uniques, it causes bad mutations 9 times out of 10, or otherwise a random mutation, which can still be bad. You can't use it on yourself 18:59] wait, why tame beasts and poly? 18:59] oh, right, flight is cool, too 18:59] hmm 18:59] tame beasts because you count sheep, I assume 18:59] ogaz: Apparently you don't have the same dreams I do. :P 18:59] silence maybe 18:59] Tame beasts because it gets a power bonus vs. sheep. 18:59] dunno 19:00] clearly we need a summon sheep spell 19:00] Kyrris: I dunno, I almost never remember even dreaming 19:00] I thought about silence, but I don't like it, since it's supposed to be stifling 19:00] nrook: oh yeah 19:00] Yeah, anything that wakes people up shouldn't be in :Dreams. 19:00] phase shift? 19:00] not really 19:00] Phase shift would be better than poly. 19:01] No? 19:01] Two planes at once. 19:01] eh/intox/flight/tame beasts might be good enough 19:01] Who says what the immaterial one is? 19:01] I still don't get tame beasts, but whatever 19:01] :P 19:01] yeah I'd replace tame with shadow creatures and phase shift 19:02] oh, right, shadow creatures, forgot that 19:02] that's better, yes 19:02] so EH/Alistair's/Flight/Phase Shift/Shadow Creatures 19:02] cool 19:02] That makes... ice/ench, air/ench, summ, tloc/ench, and pois/tmut. 19:03] phase shift isn't ench 19:03] I like that, for a generalist wizard book. 19:03] it's a nice mix 19:03] Pure tloc? 19:03] yeah 19:03] 2,6,5,6,4 19:03] Good mid-power book. 19:03] yeah :D 19:03] but that's wrong 19:03] hmm, I know where the "real" books are, but I can't find the fixedarts 19:03] ??alistairs 19:03] alistairs intoxication[1/3]: Confuses all natural monsters in line of sight which aren't poison resistant or of animal or lower intelligence. This includes you if not wearing an amulet of clarity. Also drains 1-3 points of intelligence 5% of the time. Found only in Book of Party Tricks, L4 Transmutation-Poison spell. 19:04] 2,4,4,5,5 19:04] which is also a good mid-power book 19:04] I remember hearing about a "second course in magic" on somethingawful which was all, like, power 4 spells, but it isn't in spl-book.cc 19:04] TGWi: an ogre's paradise :) 19:04] nrook: that's a randart 19:04] that's a randart 19:04] oh, that's a randart? that explains it 19:04] there are two types of randart books, the fixed-school and fixed-level ones 19:04] occasionally you get randart books that have all the spells at the same level 19:04] the fixed level ones are rarer but completely awesome 19:05] I remember getting a Boris book in Pan with all level 7 spells 19:05] book of reality, for anti-magic effects? 19:05] see invisible, silence 19:05] uh 19:05] oh wow, that's really cool ogaz 19:05] but wait 19:05] if it's level 7, it doesn't have iron bolt, drain, or crystal spear! 19:05] Flight is 5? 19:05] ??flight 19:05] flight[1/1]: Level 4 ench/air. Grants levitation and controlled flight for its duration. Found in the {book of the sky}. 19:06] it's 4 19:06] Oh, wow. 19:06] what interesting level 7 spells are there? 19:06] I was thinking dMsl/haste/silence, I guess. 19:06] greater demon 19:06] Are restricted-book spells allowed in other books? 19:06] every single tloc spell 19:06] Kyrris: yeah, Shatter's in the book of tempests 19:06] Right. 19:06] and Haunt hangs out in Summonings 19:07] shatter's also in the other book with dragonform, I think 19:07] nrook, you forgot the book of flesh 19:07] TGWi: honestly, I missed the book of flesh completely 19:07] TGWi: I'll go look for it 19:07] Book of Rending! 19:07] animate dead on meat rations should make dancing ribs 19:07] stoneskin sublimation simulacrum cigotuvi 19:08] nrook: ping 19:08] Animate dead should make chunks into toe golems. 19:09] TGWi: book of alliteration! I like it. 19:09] hahaha 19:09] that was flesh 19:09] I know, but it's a book with cool alliteration 19:10] ?? simulacrum 19:10] simulacrum[1/2]: Powerful but easy-to-kill ice copies of monsters. These can inflict massive amounts of damage if the player lacks cold resistance. They also leave a cloud of freezing vapor when killed. 19:10] ?? cigutovi 19:10] I don't have a page labeled cigutovi in my learndb. 19:10] ?? degeneration 19:10] degeneration[1/1]: Drains a random attribute (str, int, dex). By 1d4. Will kill you of {stat drain} if chosen stat is low enough. 19:10] ?? cigotovi's degeneration 19:10] I don't have a page labeled cigotovis_degeneration in my learndb. 19:10] ??cigotuvis degeneration 19:10] cigotuvis degeneration[1/2]: Requires line of fire, checks magic resistance, only works on natural monsters. Turns enemy into a {pulsating lump}, which means not only that you don't get the original monster's exp, but that you'll get mutated if it hits you. 19:10] simulacrums should leave a radius 1 cloud of freezing vapour 19:10] ??cigotuvis degeneration[2] 19:10] cigotuvis degeneration[2/2]: Naturally, you SHOULD cast this on every monster worth less than 52 XP, if you have the spell hungerless. Actually, just use Polymorph Other on them. 19:11] rather than just a single tile 19:11] doy: they do 19:11] oh, what? 19:11] make them actually dangerous 19:11] rather than just annoying 19:11] (: 19:11] aww, I wanted to check its level because I'm listing them in that order 19:11] they are VERY dangerous 19:11] them = the clouds, that is 19:11] af cold is nuts 19:11] TGWi: yeah, i meant the cloud part 19:11] ah ok 19:12] I like the idea of a book which gets the dungeon itself to do your dirty work 19:13] LRD? 19:13] summon elemental 19:13] shadow creatures? 19:13] sure 19:13] shadow creatures is such a cool spell if you think about it 19:13] Castable minefield? 19:13] you're, like, summoning the memories of the creatures who have passed before you 19:13] mass confusion, maybe? 19:13] Or should that stay only a card ability? 19:13] no, enslavement 19:14] book of stone of earth elementals 19:14] Kyrris: this is all easy stuff, no new spells I think 19:14] Ah, okay. 19:14] Spirits. 19:14] I tried to get the stone of earth elementals removed, but it got shot down :( 19:14] nrook: enslavement, LRD, summon elemental, shadow creatures 19:15] maybe tame beasts instead of enslavement 19:15] is tame beasts any good, incidentally? 19:15] Err, book of ghosts: Haunt, shadow creatures, projected noise, freeze. 19:15] for such a cool spell I want it to be a hidden gem 19:15] I'm pretty sure it's not very good 19:16] kyrris: freeze is a stretch 19:16] It works on about half the animals, half the time. 1/5 chance at max power to make pets. 19:16] Chill touch of death. 19:16] freeze is my favorite one in there, actually 19:16] ok, go for it 19:16] I'm not so hot on shadow creatures, though 19:16] I'd suggest phase shift but I think I'm overusing it 19:17] although I'm thinking everyone has a different picture of what shadow creatures does 19:17] it's just so cool 19:17] You're the one who talked about summoning those who have gone before. 19:17] hmm, yeah 19:17] I'm so happy phase shift is in tloc now; I felt that what tloc needed was a couple of decent spells between levels 4 and 7 19:17] Tloc needs a damage spell. 19:18] no it doesn't 19:18] Smite targeted, checks MR. 19:18] tloc needs to put stone arrow in the book of translocations 19:18] I want blink other for tloc, that's all 19:18] "Dislocate". 19:18] dispersal, ogaz 19:18] just expensive 19:18] ??dispersal 19:18] dispersal[1/2]: All monsters that are adjacent to you will be instantly teleported away if they don't resist (via magic resistance). If a monster does resist, 50% of the time it will be blinked instead (even if it's immune!), otherwise nothing happens to it. 19:19] TGWi: I was thinking of something more like what roxanne does 19:19] ok not the same 19:19] dispersal should have a second check against 1/2 your opponent's MR instead 19:19] anyway, hmm, book of ghosts 19:19] I still think it's missing something 19:19] List of all spells somewhere? 19:19] http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:system:immense 19:19] the big table is sorted by school 19:20] cause fear? 19:20] practical magic is gone in trunk, right? 19:20] what?! 19:20] cause fear, sure 19:20] ogaz: it has like zero spells left 19:20] or petrify! 19:20] ??book of practical magic 19:20] book of practical magic[1/1]: Spells: projected noise, selective amnesia, detect curse, dig, remove curse. 19:20] Cause fear. 19:21] wait, selective amnesia was removed? 19:21] wasn't it always pretty much the book of selective amnesia 19:21] YES. 19:21] no 19:21] dc and rc are gone 19:21] the book of being a terrible person 19:21] amnesia was moved to wizardry 19:21] oh, okay 19:21] cause fear, berserker rage, selective amnesia 19:21] nrook: haha 19:22] Book of the Mind. 19:22] book of movement: swiftness, haste, statue form, slow 19:22] book of transportation? passwall, tele self, cblink - holy shit ogaz 19:22] Cause Fear, Confusion, Berserker Rage, Selective Amnesia. 19:23] book of exodus: cause fear, sticks to snakes, haunt, fedhas's sunlight ability 19:23] corona? 19:24] That's awesome, nrook, but wait until we can get new spells in there. 19:24] Also, you need summon scorpions. 19:24] And conjure flame. 19:25] book of chemistry - distillation, evaporation, sublimation 19:25] I'm not even kidding 19:25] TGWi: Alchemist's Guidebook. 19:25] yeah that 19:26] Possibly also LRD. Yesno? 19:26] nah 19:26] It's a good necromut primer, anyway. 19:26] stoneskin? 19:26] And eminently useful. 19:26] Stoneskin isn't an alchemical procedure. :P 19:27] hmm 19:27] needs more 19:27] but I like that book 19:27] I think the book of ghosts needs a better name 19:27] phantasmal book? 19:28] Lethal infusion? 19:28] [adjective] book sounds like an unidentified randart 19:28] oh, yeah 19:28] oh 19:28] condensation shield, duh 19:29] nrook: [Necromancer]'s Dissertation on Spirits 19:29] Needs a name. 19:29] kyrris: that sounds like an identified randart 19:29] TGWi: And? 19:29] nrook: book of chemistry - sublimation, condensation, distillation, evaporation 19:29] It's essentially an unrand, anyway. 19:29] Not infusion? 19:30] infusion too 19:30] That's a chemist 19:30] ry word. 19:30] TGWi: I like that a lot, will add it as I try to think of a name for ghosts 19:30] ok 19:31] * purge has quit IRC (".") 19:32] call it the book of spirits, put in intoxication :p 19:32] nah, I'll just add it as ghosts and put a note saying "please better name" since I can't think of anything 19:32] nrook: you're terrible :P 19:33] I actually like the Spirits pun. 19:33] And I hate puns. 19:33] Tell me you put in Cause Fear. 19:33] Banshee. 19:34] nrook: [book] of mediums? 19:34] Book of Bahn Sidhe. 19:34] Bain Sidhe? 19:34] Yes, Bain. 19:34] bain sidhe? 19:34] book of banshees 19:34] projected noise, haunt 19:34] Instead of ghosts. 19:35] Bain sidhe. 19:35] I mean, I assume that means something but I don't know what 19:35] Banshee. 19:35] That's the bastard english spelling. 19:35] It means female spirit, technically, but the Irish were a euphemistic lot. 19:36] everybody's a euphemistic lot when talking about nasty spirits 19:36] Right. 19:37] They are the spirits that escort you to the carriage that takes you to hell. 19:37] still, I dunno if crawl goes in for references that direct 19:37] Banshee is a monster TYPE in most games. 19:37] Like ghasts, or wraiths. 19:37] yeah, but "Bain Sidhe" isn't 19:37] Eh, it's cultural. Use the english spelling, then. 19:38] Yes, Crawl would never reference mythology directly 19:38] see: nessos, polyphemus 19:38] Proteus. 19:38] oh, also all the hell lords come from various different sources 19:38] well, yeah, but they're old 19:38] (the hell lords, not the uniques obv) 19:39] and look at the fate of chronos 19:39] eh, I'll settle it with the mighty / 19:39] MIGHTY / 19:39] MIGHTY /. 19:40] I think we should stop for now, the list is getting a bit big 19:41] bain sidhe is the irish for banshee, it literally means fairy woman 19:41] * Scrubber has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 19:43] Late to the party, eith. :P 19:43] * Iainuki_ has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 19:43] =p 19:45] * Iainuki_ has joined ##crawl-dev 19:45] * nrook has quit IRC ("leaving") 19:50] Amulet of Stasis and Teleport traps (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=546) by LordSloth 20:03] * due back. 20:04] due, http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:books 20:04] Bainsidhe, is better. 20:04] Or mBainhsidhe in some transliterations. 20:05] I still do not get eclipsed consonants in Irish. 20:05] V. confusing. 20:05] Ignore them, usually. 20:05] Oh, is that it? 20:05] Or toss an h after. 20:05] That's kinda easy. 20:05] Bhainsidhe, if you want to transliterate it in a way you can read. 20:05] I only studied Irish for six months. 20:06] does kyrris speak the irish? 20:06] I mean don't bother writing them. 20:06] Not unless you want to impress a speaker. 20:06] Hehe. 20:06] TGWi: About as well as due. 20:06] I can pronounce bits of it. 20:06] But there's all slide vowels and consonant shifts depending on vowels, and then eclipsing. 20:06] The eclipsed b is halfway to a v sound. 20:06] Like spanish b. 20:06] And then the other thing involving the h. 20:06] Lenition? 20:07] Lenition! 20:07] Thank you. 20:07] Right. Bh is lenited. 20:07] Ugh. 20:07] Fucking Gaelic. 20:07] Man, it's all coming back to me now. 20:07] It is not nice. 20:07] ##crawl-arguing-about-linguistics 20:07] ##crawl-drowning-tgw? 20:07] Hey, it's relevant to documentation. :P 20:07] 'tis. 20:08] eith is actually irish, right? 20:08] aye 20:08] nh is straight v sound, isn't it? 20:09] That doesn't mean he speaks any Gaelic. 20:09] * Kyrris peers suspiciously. 20:09] well we do actually have to learn it in school 20:10] Oh, really? How many years? 20:10] I studied Japanese for seven years. 20:10] I... can't remember a thing. 20:11] you learn irish all the way up to till your like 15 20:12] Nice! 20:12] Conversational or grammatical? 20:13] you have to be able to speak it in exams 20:13] and listen to it with horrible dialects and shit 20:13] Ciao. 20:13] its horrible lol 20:13] Ick. 20:14] * Kyrris has quit IRC 20:15] * Iainuki_ has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:16] * Iainuki_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:17] eronarn: ping 20:17] pong 20:18] you should see the books page 20:18] who gave TGWi wiki access? baaad idea. 20:18] :p 20:18] =p 20:19] due: only once I figure out how to use the wiki 20:19] ooh, a page 20:19] I may look. Doing SQL at the moment. 20:20] that sounds gripping 20:20] * due grips TGWi in horror. 20:20] due: do I have to stop using action verbs or something? 20:21] No. 20:21] I'm just being silly. 20:21] It's okay. 20:23] TGWi: it's not particularly exciting... but i get paid for it! 20:23] and the data it will contain *is* exciting 20:24] What happened to labs? 20:24] something happened to labs? 20:24] Iainuki_: I think you meant that for ##crawl-offtopic 20:24] It sounds like a Crawl topic. 20:25] Is it not? 20:25] ##crawl-ontopic 20:25] Ah, I see. 20:25] or just ##crawl I guess 20:27] * Iainuki_ is now known as Agarthanuki 20:29] * Agarthanuki is now known as Iainuki_ 20:39] Okay, larva. 20:39] ant larva -> lightgrey 'a', soldier ant -> white 'a'. Yes? 20:40] yes! 20:40] And bee larva to lightgrey 'k'. Yes? 20:40] yes!! 20:40] Anyone else? 20:40] sure, why not 20:40] what are ant queens, lightred? 20:41] yes 20:42] I'm just going to push it, it makes sens. 20:42] my second choice would be larvae brown/red, bees/ants yellow/lightred, queens white 20:42] so that larvae are darkest 20:42] or maybe my first choice! 20:42] Any other simple ones? 20:43] what do we think about swapping wolves and wargs? 20:44] @??wolf 20:44] wolf (15h) | Speed: 17 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 3/15 | Damage: 8, 2, 2 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: 06magic(16) | XP: 99. 20:44] @??wolf 20:44] wolf (15h) | Speed: 17 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 3/15 | Damage: 8, 2, 2 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: 06magic(16) | XP: 99. 20:44] @??warg 20:44] warg (16h) | Speed: 13 | HD: 4 | Health: 16-36 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 12, 3, 3 | Flags: sense invisible | Res: 06magic(32), 03poison | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 100. 20:44] uh, what colour are wargs 20:44] white? 20:44] Wargs have more damage, but wolves and considerably faster. 20:44] yes. 20:44] @??wolf spider 20:44] wolf spider (16s) | Speed: 15 | HD: 8 | Health: 24-64 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Damage: 2004(medium poison) | Res: 06magic(32) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 454. 20:44] sure 20:45] Eronarn, thoughts? 20:45] i think wargs and wolves should stay 20:45] * henryci has joined ##crawl-dev 20:45] Hm. 20:45] Okay, leaving them then. 20:45] Too contentious to do without discussion. 20:45] wargs have more hp and rpois 20:45] giant iguana -> iguana, thoughts? 20:45] uh no 20:45] they're giant 20:45] "giant" is overuused. 20:46] due: i'm the one who proposed switching wolves/wargs, so... 20:46] in a lot of instances where it is unneccessary. 20:46] 90% of the 'l' are "giant". 20:46] i like the idea of renamings like 'giant lizard' -> 'alligator' 20:46] doy: 'giant lizard' already got renamed to crocodile :) 20:46] but just removing 'giant' from things like iguanas is a bit silly 20:46] @??crocodile 20:46] due: favor choose one of giant lizard / giant iguana, drop the other, move the stats to be in the middle of the two 20:46] crocodile (07t) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 20 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 104. 20:46] @??giant lizard 20:46] unknown monster: "giant lizard" 20:46] due: right 20:46] they weigh like 20 pounds 20:47] exactly how wimpy is a crawl character? 20:47] giant newts could be made into iguanas 20:47] Death drakes are bigger than giant igauans 20:47] @??alligator 20:47] alligator (12t) | Speed: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-108 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(48) | XP: 962 | Sp: swiftness. 20:47] they're not "giant death trake". 20:47] uh 20:47] speed 10 act 8? 20:47] i mean - i'd be up for renaming most 'giant ' monsters, but let's rename them to something that makes sense 20:47] *giant death drake 20:47] erm 20:47] due: um 20:47] ...why are alligator/croc on t 20:47] 100/8 20:47] What? 20:47] at that point you may as well move all non-drake l to t 20:48] due: death drakes could be anything, they aren't real 20:48] why are they act 80% 20:48] due: 'iguana' has a specific meaning 20:48] Hm. 20:48] Let's deal with issues one at a time. 20:48] maybe they were meant to be speed 8 act 80% 20:48] TGWi: alligators are a completely new monster that have nothing to do with crocodiles. 20:48] due: giant giant bat 20:48] and speed 10 act 80% works quite nice in my tests. 20:48] due: who the hell knows the difference? 20:49] TGWi: what? 20:49] and can seperate them enough to remember that they're completely different? 20:49] :| 20:49] Dude. 20:49] They don't even appear together. 20:49] TGWi: what? 20:49] Alligators are a swamp only monster. 20:49] Crocodiles appear in the early game, the same place as giant lizards used to. 20:50] @?giant lizard 20:50] giant lizard (09l) | Speed: 10 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 20 | Flags: cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 104. 20:50] The only difference between crocodiles and giant lizards is that they'r enow amphibious. 20:50] exactly 20:50] Oh, go away. 20:50] not that 20:50] TGWi: what is your point here 20:50] "The term can also be used more loosely to include all members of the order Crocodilia: i.e. the true crocodiles, the alligators..." 20:50] * ChanServ sets mode: +o due 20:50] * TGWi was kicked by due (Go away, though.) 20:51] * due sets mode: -o due 20:51] * TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 20:51] TGWi: different monsters have different stats 20:51] this is pretty normal 20:51] we need an unrand described as crocodile-leather boots 20:51] i don't know what you're arguing for 20:51] Eronarn: Yesss, definitely. 20:51] different monsters with names which are used interchangeably have wildly different stats? 20:51] due: fwiw TGWi is in the right on this one 20:51] it was already a problem between giant iguana, giant lizard, komodo dragon 20:51] \o/ 20:51] I. Don't. Care. 20:52] They are crocodiles. 20:52] the term 'snapping turtle' presumably includes alligator snapping turtles too 20:52] !learn add tgw (10:51:49 PM) Eronarn: due: fwiw TGWi is in the right on this one 20:52] tgw[4/4]: (10:51:49 PM) Eronarn: due: fwiw TGWi is in the right on this one 20:52] They are different colours, they are different glyphs, they are utterly different. 20:52] Their descriptions are different. 20:52] due: the problem is in people fighting them for the first time - there is no easy way to see how much HP something has or how hard it hits 20:52] Eronarn: SO what? 20:52] Eronarn: this is true for all monsters 20:52] i don't see what the deal is here 20:52] They'll learn. 20:53] doy: Me neither. 20:53] I renamed giant lizards and moved them onto a new glyph. How is this such a massive issue? 20:53] doy: it's not a huge deal but it is noticeably not ideal 20:54] there is no problem with renaming and moving onto a new glyph 20:54] Then what is the issue? 20:54] but the new name is synonymous with the name of a far more powerful enemy 20:54] TGWi: but the name is different 20:54] ... the name is *different*. 20:54] Are people going t ostart looking up monsters in a dictionary? 20:54] due: it would be like adding a mouse monster, when we already have rats, that was as tough as a giant iguana 20:54] i'm pretty sure people will see the different name and realize 'hey, this is a different monster' 20:54] people do not remember the difference between alligators and crocodiles in real life 20:55] if you called it a "mighty mouse", then okay 20:55] especially *since* you don't see them in the same place, it may not even click that they're different 20:55] ARGH. 20:55] people can tell it's supposed to be bigger 20:55] * Iainuki_ has quit IRC 20:55] They. Will. Learn. 20:55] but crocodile vs. alligator is not at all intuitive, you can't tell which is tougher until you're already fighting 20:55] nobody is saying they won't 20:55] Then why is this an issue? 20:55] "stone giant vs fire giant is not at all intuitive, you can't tell which are tougher until you're already fighting" 20:56] "steam dragon vs ice dragon etc" 20:56] Or cyclops versus hill giant. 20:56] Or naga warior versus greater naga. 20:56] Or centaur versus yaktaur. 20:56] um, what 20:56] greater naga doesn't sound more powerful than naga warrior? really? 20:56] your examples mostly suck 20:56] yeah 20:56] seriously, quoting that forever 20:56] Go away. 20:56] ice doesn't sound more powerful than steam? 20:56] * pointless_ has quit IRC ("ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]") 20:57] TGWi: mottled vs ice then 20:57] Or just dragon versus ice dragon. 20:57] it would be more like making a stone giant and a rock giant and expecting people to learn 20:57] * pointless_ has joined ##crawl-dev 20:57] * ChanServ sets mode: +v pointless_ 20:57] sure, they might, but it's not necessary that they should have to 20:57] I said stop. 20:57] Unless someone decides to override me, no change is happening. 20:59] Any other simple glyph changes need to happen while I'm doing the larvae? 20:59] did anyone chime in on reassigning vortexes 20:59] Shadows really ought to change. 20:59] does anything else use v? 20:59] shadows definitely 20:59] air elementals 20:59] TGWi: air elementals 20:59] shadows, lol 21:00] @??earth elemental 21:00] earth elemental (07#) | Speed: 6 | HD: 6 | Health: 30-60 | AC/EV: 14/4 | Damage: 40 | Flags: 11non-living | Res: 13magic(immune), 04fire+++, 12cold+++, 11elec+++, 09poison+++ | XP: 84. 21:00] @??water elemental 21:00] water elemental (12{) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 6 | Health: 30-48 | AC/EV: 0/7 | Damage: 25 | Flags: 11non-living, amphibious, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 10elec++, 03poison | Vul: 04fire | XP: 172. 21:00] at the moment we have insubstantial wisps on p, air elementals on v, smoke demons on 3, vapours on # 21:00] al for what essentially look like identical monsters 21:00] Well, smoke demons are a ... demon. 21:00] we should reduce this to 2 glyphs at most 21:00] But vapours and air elementals should be 'p'. 21:00] smoke demon is justified I think 21:00] ...what 21:00] p is a good thing! 21:00] why p 21:00] p is for ghosts 21:01] p is for insubstantial guys 21:01] * Timbermaw has quit IRC ("later!") 21:01] p is phantoms and insubstantials. 21:01] Eronarn: insubstantial wisps are on p 21:01] um 21:01] I thin khe wants to move them off p. 21:01] out of the several insubstantial monsters in the game 21:01] one of them is on p 21:01] so 21:01] phantoms are on p. 21:01] what else is? 21:01] due: er, the non-undead-y ones, anyways 21:01] ghosts. 21:01] what does insubstantial do? I've been speaking from flavor 21:01] i'd be alright with moving insubstantial wisps off of p 21:01] There aren't many other insubstantials. 21:02] doy: Sure. 21:02] is that the sticky flame thing? 21:02] but what do? 21:02] TGWi: Nets, sticky flame 21:02] TGWi: among other things 21:02] TGWi: Some other spells, I forget what. 21:02] so, all p except phantom? 21:02] @??spectral warrior 21:02] spectral warrior (09W) | Speed: 10 | HD: 9 | Health: 27-72 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Damage: 1813(drain) | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(72), 02cold, 03poison | XP: 541. 21:03] i think everything on # and { should be changed, probably 21:03] doy: Agree, clouds ar eenogh as it is. 21:03] that's just pointless interface confusion 21:03] we could go the other way and assign all elemental-types to v 21:03] so how about v for insubstantial wisps, vapours, etc 21:03] doy: I like that. 21:03] high five doy 21:03] and p for shadows 21:03] We could move all elementals to 'v', too, I suppose. 21:03] why not to E 21:04] We'd have to move efreeti off. 21:04] yeah, we could move efreets elsewhere 21:04] is efreet moving? 21:04] R maybe 21:04] I was thinking e, but same idea 21:04] e is elves 21:04] also what about raks 21:04] 'E' is to big, thoguh. 21:04] efreets to R, elementals to E 21:04] oh, right 21:04] elementals are kinda naff. 21:04] I don't want to move rakshasas off R. 21:04] v could be for vapours, vortices 21:04] (weren't we going to use R for non-demon demonic monsters?) 21:04] TGWi: dwar[v]es 21:04] eronarn: lol 21:04] doy: that was my suggestion, yes 21:04] what other glyphs are unused 21:04] Qi? 21:04] so make R rakshasas and efreets 21:04] ` 21:05] Which doesn't work, because our rakshasa are demons. 21:05] ~ 21:05] due: non-numbered-demon demonic 21:05] vapours as ~ would work well i think 21:05] couldn't you assign a tier to raks 21:05] Can't use ~, unless we fully dump submerging. 21:05] you know what i mean 21:05] huh, there really is no good glyph for dwarves 21:05] ogaz: 'v' works well. 21:05] use 'e' 21:05] TGWi: e is too full 21:05] 'e' would be too confusing. 21:05] due: there are only like... two vortexes, one proposed. ~ would work fine with limited colors 21:05] They're currently on @. 21:05] make dwarves replace ALL elves! 21:06] Eronarn: Yeah, but it's used to denote invisible monsters in clouds as well. 21:06] Eronarn: don't really like monster glyphs overlapping with dungeon feature glyphs 21:06] It's more of amultipurpose feature glyph than a monster glyph. 21:06] anyways, i like * for vortexes better than v 21:06] I'm goin got move vapours to 'v', for the minute. 21:06] For 0.6. 21:06] Eronarn: could work too 21:06] Which is apparently coming out next month. 21:06] due: that sounds good 21:06] a vortex hanging in midair doesn't look appreciably different from an orb 21:06] due: heh 21:06] they're both swirly energy balls 21:06] i give it two months at least 21:06] due: vapours and insub wisps to v 21:07] Okay. 21:07] shadows to p 21:07] I'm just going to go ahead and make the changes. 21:07] but i'd favor this in particular because it frees up v 21:07] darkgrey p? 21:07] due: no darkgrey monsters 21:07] Hm. 21:07] blue p is already taken for phantoms. 21:07] magenta p. 21:07] phantoms aren't insubstantial, are they? 21:07] due: darkred? 21:07] they should be if they aren't, imo 21:08] darkred p is flayed ghost? 21:08] @??flayed ghost 21:08] flayed ghost (05p) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 33-88 | AC/EV: 0/14 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 07undead, evil, lev | Res: 06magic(58), 03poison | XP: 719. 21:08] TGWi: oh 21:08] forgot about that one 21:08] phantoms are insubstantial 21:08] why do we have both W and p, anyways 21:08] all current p are insubstantial 21:08] I like magenta p, 21:08] you can sticky flame phantoms, can't you? 21:08] ??monsters 21:08] monsters[1/1]: Type @?monstername in this channel (or in a PM to Gretell), or see http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/kielosto/crawl_spoilers/ss/crawl_ss_monsters_by_name.html If you want to see the stats of a monster in trunk, use @?? instead of @? 21:08] not in 0.6 21:08] ??phantom 21:08] phantom[1/1]: A ghost that is the same sort of bastard blinker as an imp. Has more AC and hits harder, but doesnt regen like an imp and cant use weapons or armour. Unlike most ghosts, sticky flame adheres to phantoms. 21:08] oh ok 21:08] due: magenta is usually used for more dangerous monsters 21:09] Hm. 21:09] TGWi: we recently went through and made the insubstantial monster list more sane 21:09] cyan? 21:09] darkgrey would be perfect if monsters were allowed to be darkgrey 21:09] due: cyan sounds good 21:09] ogaz: Yeah, no darkgrey. 21:10] I went with magenta because shadow imps are magenta. 21:10] hmmm, i suppose 21:10] also, can butterflies be excluded from both greys? 21:10] As are shadow demons. 21:10] darkgrey is apparently bad and lightgrey looks like bats 21:10] TGWi: Kinda difficult at the minute. 21:11] oh? 21:11] TGWi: that would be a good idea, but yeah, not sure how hard it would be 21:11] We'd need to create a new monster-only random colour that restricts using darkgrey and black. 21:11] didn't someone do that with Yiuf? 21:11] No 21:11] I was goin gto, but it was to omuch fuss. 21:11] excluding dark grey would be easier i think 21:11] doy: All the "shadow" creatures are magenta. 21:11] due: sounds good then 21:11] We could just make it pick again if it gets darkgrey. 21:11] due: right 21:14] I should do that. 21:15] We've only elementals on # and { now. 21:15] efreets to R, elementals to E 21:16] I'm not going to FR this, just going to push. 21:16] I don't think it'll be issueous. 21:16] moving elementals to E? 21:16] * sorear makes sad puppy eyes at due 21:16] sorear: No, not touching E. 21:17] sorear: Can you update @?? ? I can't remember how to :( 21:17] why not? i think the elemental glyphs are some of the most problematic 21:17] @??alligator 21:17] alligator (12t) | Speed: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-108 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 30 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(48) | XP: 962 | Sp: swiftness. 21:17] @??crocodile 21:17] crocodile (07t) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Damage: 20 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 104. 21:17] doy: But the most contentious. 21:17] due: I did it once by accident 21:17] sorear: Bah. 21:17] due: I don't *actually* know how to either 21:17] Okay. 21:17] I'm pretty sure I just have to update the crawl-ref copy and then run the makefile... 21:18] due: who's being contentious about them? 21:18] doy: me ;) 21:18] d: 21:18] doy: I don't like elementals on E. 21:18] why not? 21:18] Because elementals aren't particularly threatening. 21:18] And E is a ncie and big glyph. 21:19] Ah, looks like i tis updating. Hooray! 21:19] i'd rather make elementals more threatening(: 21:19] but that's a bigger change, i suppose 21:19] Hm, true. 21:19] Did nobody notice the buff I gave sea snakes? :) 21:20] It confuses me that we go from sorted by glyph to sorted by type at the end of mon-data.h 21:20] @??alligator 21:20] alligator (12t) | Speed: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-108 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 30, 15 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(48) | XP: 1089 | Sp: swiftness. 21:21] Better. 21:21] @??sea snake 21:21] sea snake (11S) | Speed: 12 (swim: 40%) | HD: 10 | Health: 40-90 | AC/EV: 2/15 | Damage: 2405(strong poison) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40) | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 755. 21:21] Just need greensnark to do the timidity thing :D 21:23] It's so nice to put people on ignore. 21:23] due: B? S? H? 21:23] B? S? H? 21:24] "it's not scary" is not a reason not to use a cap glyph 21:24] Ah. 21:24] K is less scary than k too 21:24] heck, W 21:24] S is scary 21:24] (: 21:24] of course, Ks are way bigger 21:24] S and H are quite scary, iin my mind. 21:24] and S is way scarier than s 21:24] most S are pretty dangerous when you first meet them 21:24] and H than h 21:24] but yeah, B is pretty underwhelming 21:24] also, e, t 21:24] what's b for? 21:24] i'm not against "bigger=tougher", mind you 21:24] are pretty scary 21:24] batty things. 21:24] just... we aren't doing it right now 21:24] oh right 21:25] yeah those are a bit less scary :P 21:25] Eronarn: But I see no reason why we should keep not doing it now. ;) 21:25] Oh, what about I? 21:25] due: because if we're going to constrain ourselves in design that way, we should redesign things that violate those constraints 21:25] ilemental 21:25] are there any I other than Ice Beast? 21:25] No, I mean. 21:25] What about ice beasts? 21:25] oh 21:25] They're the only thing on it. 21:25] hrm 21:25] well nobody knows what they look like 21:25] also, ice beasts are fairly formidable when you first run into them 21:25] ogaz: agree. 21:26] ice beasts could be E just fine 21:26] TGWi: Apparently they're some sort of hybrid dog thing, according to the tile. 21:26] [E]lementals and related creatures 21:26] are the tiles online somewhere? 21:26] TGWi: Yes, just linking. 21:26] ok 21:26] "h" is kind of stupid for ice beasts, however 21:26] Eronarn: if we move ice beasts to E, no reason to not keep efreets there 21:26] especially since white h is taken 21:26] http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/?page_id=214 21:27] doy: ...?! 21:27] Hm 21:27] TGWi: that looks more like a bear to me 21:27] oh wow, that site is great 21:27] Ice beasts might work on Y. 21:27] Or U. 21:27] But then overlap with polar bears. 21:27] i don't think ice beasts should be moved to any 'natural animal' glyph though 21:27] because they really aren't 21:27] uh, aren't ice beasts humanoid? 21:27] agree 21:27] ??ice form 21:27] ice form[1/1]: +20% hp, no weapons or armour save cloaks, -fire, +++cold, +pois, +5-12 AC (and additional bonus from synergy with {ozocubu's armour} ), +10,+9 slaying w/ freezing brand. 21:27] I like ice beasts on 8, personally. 21:27] "kind of like a yak, but with a shaggy coat of icicles and much bigger claws" 21:27] oh, cloaks only 21:28] nevermind 21:28] Or 9. 21:28] ice gargoyles :D 21:28] 8 looks like a snowman 21:28] due: that could work 21:28] hm... 21:28] either 8 or 9 21:28] 8 = humanoid constructs, 9 = monstrous "constructs"? 21:28] It would free up another glyph. 21:29] But I don't think I'll get away with making those changes without an FR and discussion. 21:29] are 9 and 6 used at all? 21:29] So, I'm going to commit these 21:29] ogaz: 6 and 7 aren't, 9 are. 21:29] @??gargoyle 21:29] gargoyle (159) | Speed: 10 | HD: 4 | Health: 12-32 | AC/EV: 18/6 | Damage: 10, 6, 6 | Flags: 11non-living, fly | Res: 06magic(32), 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 140. 21:29] - the only thin to think of is that ice beasts are living things 21:29] 9 is gargoyles hi due 21:29] oh right 21:29] ogaz: 9 are gargoyles, 6 are going to be demonspawn eventually 21:29] currently 21:29] due: 7 is trees now 21:29] and 7 are trees 21:29] 8 are golems 21:29] 0 is unused, but potentially confusable with O 21:29] and the orb, after all. 21:30] imo, E for elementals, efreet => R (malevolent spirits), ice beast => E 21:30] don't most fonts have a slashed zero? 21:30] due: oh, right 21:30] vortexes => * 21:30] Giant spores -> *, also. 21:30] Eronarn: agree with everything there, except ice beast -> 9 21:30] due: yes, that 21:30] along with removing giant spores from spawning in slime 21:30] doy: well, i think there it's a question of 21:31] what the heck *IS* an ice beast 21:31] Hm 21:31] is it more of an elemental-y thing, a natural thing but made of ice, etc. 21:31] well, ice statues can create ice beasts 21:31] doy: Agree, to be honest, I don't think they should. 21:31] doy: they can summon ice beasts 21:31] (re: spores) 21:31] also, i don't like giant spores to * "just because they explode", really 21:31] doesn't mean anything 21:31] Eronarn: Them being on 'G' makes less sense. 21:31] eronarn: they don't fit in with G at all 21:31] at all 21:31] Eronarn: G is 'eyes' everywhere else 21:31] 'They're a ... type of eyeball.'; 21:32] holy shit i didn't say to keep themo n G aaaaaaaaa 21:32] creepiest fungi ever! 21:32] They explode more in common with * than they have eyes ll over them with G. 21:32] i'd want them on f 21:32] Eronarn: meh 21:32] meh. 21:32] confusing with ballistos 21:32] f and P are immobile 21:32] well no it isn't 21:32] haha but confusing with f in general 21:32] TGWi: it's all in color 21:32] "mon_glyph = shadow : black " ""??? 21:32] due: what? 21:32] anyone else think it would be cool if fedhas sunlight killed vampires instantly? =) 21:32] also they're pretty clearly smaller than fungi 21:33] kil2: no 21:33] ...when has that ever influenced glyph 21:33] it already makes them sparkle 21:33] ever 21:33] steam dragons are smaller than humans iirc 21:33] Does anyone know if that works? 21:33] Kil2: Too overpowered. 21:33] what about sunlight damaging vampires at the end of their turns? 21:33] due: 'black' means some sort of elemental-type color, doesn't it? 21:34] well, anyways. i don't particularly care where ice beast ends up as long as it makes sense 21:34] or is that just internally 21:34] doy: Hm, I'm not sure. 21:34] in their undefined-ish state, E and 9 both equally don't make sense 21:34] wait, sunlight isn't actually stationary, right? 21:34] doy: MY issue is how to represent the lack of glyph. 21:34] ogaz: Not yet. 21:34] due: _ 21:34] things i am more interested in: what'll happen to Q, q, I, v 21:34] doy: AAH WHY IS MY ALTAR MOVING 21:34] i have "mon_glyph = _ : p" in my rc 21:35] which reglyphs shadows 21:35] Ah, thanks. 21:35] Eronarn: I'd almost like to just leave them until we want to replace them 21:35] It treats "#" as a comment. 21:36] due: and i'm pretty sure that if you don't also recolor shadows, it'll make them flip between white and blue or something 21:36] Aaaawkward. 21:36] can you escape waffles? 21:36] which i think is because they use BLACK internally as their color 21:36] doy: Yeah, darkgrey.. 21:37] Argh, why does linking take forever and a day? 21:37] Import has been successfully finished, 9511 queries executed. 21:37] phew 21:37] * Cryp71c has quit IRC 21:37] Still linking. 21:37] * due links arms with doy, dances. 21:38] Oh, issue 21:38] vapours and air elementals on 'v' at the minute, for this commit, share colour. 21:38] @??vapour 21:38] vapour (15#) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 24-60 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Flags: 11non-living, see invisible, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 11elec+++, 03poison | XP: 901 | Sp: b.lightning. 21:38] should we make vapours white? 21:38] yes 21:38] or lightcyan 21:38] ooh, lightcyan 21:39] Also, insubstantial wisps are also lightgrey. 21:39] bah. 21:39] could just leave the glyphs untouched until we actually want to add monsters 21:39] air elementals should be white 21:39] ogaz: Nah. 21:40] due: why not? 21:40] ogaz: we can shuffle around the glyphs without rest 21:40] does that work too? 21:40] :effort: 21:40] ogaz: Because it's easier to do it right now, and have a free glypht to suggest a monster, than to create a monster and have everyone go "but "X" already has "YZ"! no way!" 21:41] Also, the glyphs are currently confusing and non-uniform. 21:41] doy: Also, mu keeps saying that your logs have stopped. 21:41] oh really 21:41] hmmm 21:41] i really should make Ashenzari handle the logging, it would make things a lot easier 21:42] yes 21:43] maybe you should distribute the glyphs as evenly as possible so you have an excuse to not implement monsters 21:45] no :) 21:48] @??vapour 21:48] vapour (15#) | Speed: 10 | HD: 12 | Health: 24-60 | AC/EV: 0/12 | Flags: 11non-living, see invisible, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 11elec+++, 03poison | XP: 901 | Sp: b.lightning. 21:51] @??shadow 21:51] shadow (09 ) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Damage: 505(drain strength) | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(20), 12cold+++, 03poison | XP: 28. 21:53] http://sprunge.us/BdRa 21:53] TGWi: new policy: all glyphs must be shared by at least 12 monsters 21:53] Can I get some comments before I push? 21:55] are vortices insubstantial;? 21:56] Yes. 21:56] just making sure 21:56] All 'v' ar einsubstantial, I double checked this ":) 21:56] (though I just triple checked now after doubting myself) 21:59] * Ashenzari has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 21:59] * Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 21:59] test 21:59] * Ashenzari has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 22:00] you borked it (: 22:00] poor ashenzari :( 22:01] due: jude brown is a recommended search on google 22:01] just thought I'd let you know 22:03] Still linking ;( 22:05] * Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 22:05] test 22:05] Okay, yiuf will never be darkgrey! 22:06] Neither will abominations or other BLACk monsters. 22:10] * Ashenzari has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 22:10] * Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 22:10] test 22:10] Hey, maybe we could rename crocodiles as dwarf crocodiles. 22:10] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_crocodile 22:10] hell yeah we could 22:10] Bit too wimpy a name, but cuuuuute. 22:11] and alligators -> giant dwarf crocodiles! 22:11] They're still one of the biggest early game threats. 22:11] No. 22:11] :P 22:11] !killsby giant lizard 22:11] 461 games for * (ckiller=giant lizard): 9x 78291, 8x yap, 6x sorear, 6x dpeg, 5x Archibald, 5x Nexos, 5x simul, 5x nmf, 5x mercury, 5x crawlie, 4x rob, 4x Lemuel, 4x neleai, 4x Ping, 4x Eifeltrampel, 4x Tityrus, 4x IronRobin, 4x tcircuits, 4x Pacra, 4x poop, 4x daftfad, 4x mr0t, 4x heteroy, 3x bookofjude, 3x thevalrus, 3x earlybird, 3x ronf, 3x Johan, 3x jeykey, 3x coweater, 3x TAS2012, 3x clouded... 22:11] Anyway, nobody is commenting on my commit? 22:11] * Ashenzari has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 22:11] http://www.lpzoo.org/animals/images/facts/dwarf_crocodile.jpg 22:11] aww 22:11] * Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 22:11] test 22:12] http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/resources/jerry_gingerich/10wafricandwarfcroc-1alt.jpg/medium.jpg and I'm done 22:12] omg awww <3 22:13] are there any adorably ugly animals that start with q? 22:13] * Ashenzari has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 22:13] * Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 22:13] test 22:14] quokka. 22:14] quail 22:14] holy shit quail 22:15] http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Brown_Quail_Dayboro_Feb06.jpg 22:15] mmmm, lunchy 22:16] does crawl have any birds? 22:17] not really 22:17] birds don't make a lot of sense in a dungeon 22:17] it will have phoenixes. 22:17] quokka 22:17] erm 22:17] kenku 22:17] why did I say quokka? 22:17] You're obsessed. 22:18] do butterflies spawn in shoals? maybe they can be replaced with seagulls, if they do 22:18] <3 excellent idea. 22:18] indeed 22:18] Okay 22:19] nomore darkgrey randoms 22:19] happy, TGWi? 22:19] with regards to random colours, yeah 22:26] doy: did you read the commit messags? 22:27] due: busy at the moment, give me a minute 22:27] Okay 22:33] * Ashenzari has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 22:33] * Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 22:33] test 22:33] * doy test 22:34] * Ashenzari has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 22:34] * Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 22:35] * Ashenzari has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 22:35] * Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 22:35] test 22:35] okay 22:35] logging is back up, and using ashenzari 22:35] which means it's a lot more flexible now 22:36] hooray 22:36] but possibly more buggy, so let me know if there are issues 22:36] Okay 22:36] Need a relink for the commit message? 22:37] nope, got it 22:38] due: looks good to me 22:38] Okay, here goes nothing. 22:39] also: logs should now be rotated daily 22:39] * eith has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 22:39] which should help people who were complaining about monthly logs getting too big 22:39] Hooray 22:39] 03due * r20efee2c8b00 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Don't let Mara summon a player ghost while the player is out of LOS. 22:39] 03due * r494db5b6afa0 10/crawl-ref/ (settings/052_monster_glyphs.txt source/mon-data.h): A few further (simple) glyph and colour changes. 22:39] 03due * r58955c4e673e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dungeon.cc mon-util.cc mon-util.h): Don't hand out darkgrey to 'BLACK' monsters. (TGW) 22:40] TGWi: Your name! In lights! 22:40] I am not fond of daily logs 22:41] makes it harder to search for stuff 22:47] heh, doesn't like mirc color codes 22:47] * doy is lazy though 22:47] deal with it later 22:49] Wooohooo, gummy babies. 22:49] hmmm, now to see about getting my private logs back up and running... 22:49] * doy has left ##crawl-dev 22:49] * doy has joined ##crawl-dev 22:49] * ChanServ sets mode: +v doy 22:50] I'm in the abyss (in .5) and I see a potion of paralysis on the same tile as a rock wall. 22:50] dig the wall to get to the potion 22:50] That's odd. 22:50] oh hmmm, looks like they'd already fixed themselves on their own last night 22:50] well the potion isn't interesting, it's the bug I'm curious about. 22:50] oh well! 22:51] henryci: the abyss has *all kinds* of dumb bugs like that 22:51] from what i hear, the code is an absolute mess 22:51] how is item generation done, is it done in the same pass as level generation? 22:51] no idea 22:51] I've never even looked at it. 22:51] Too scary. 22:52] * doy points henryci at abyss.cc 22:52] have fun 22:52] henryci: try generate_abyss. :) 22:54] hey cool 22:54] ohh, learned that Xom rewards you for hanging out next to the exit until it disappears. 22:54] It never actually checks to see what type of feature it places the item on 22:54] maybe we should fix that 22:54] Oh wait, it does. Hm. 22:56] * Ero has joined ##crawl-dev 22:57] due where are you seeing that? 22:57] henryci: abyss.cc:250 22:58] it seems to set the tile explicitly to DNGN_FLOOR before even attempting to place an item 22:58] ohh tricky, I missed that b/c I was looking for a comparison. 22:59] yeah 22:59] but that's only placing itesm on DNGN_UNSEEN 23:00] so obviously at a later place features are being suff on trop of items, or vice-versa. 23:00] henryci: was that rock wall in view when the abyss reformed around you, or did you find it by walking around? 23:01] walking around. But it wasn't a reformed abyss it was the initial abyss 23:05] Does area_shift get called in the initial creation? Doesn't look like it. 23:07] * syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 23:09] hey syllogism 23:09] hi 23:11] henryci: no, area_shift is probably where the bug is 23:11] We really need hornets. Hornets are cool. 23:12] area_shift is what handles creating new areas of the abyss when you walk to the map edge 23:12] * pointless_ has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 23:12] abyss_teleport is what handles abyss reforming 23:12] what's a CLOUD ? 23:12] (sorry for the silly questions) 23:13] Er... a cloud? 23:13] but area_shift seems to update grd properly too 23:13] so... shrug 23:13] henryci: In what context? 23:14] henryci: freezing clouds, smoke, etc (stuff with # glyphs that aren't walls) 23:14] We need to fix thhat one day, sigh. 23:14] I see. 23:14] due: ? 23:14] doy: # for clouds as well as walls. 23:14] It's really confusing. 23:14] ah, yeah 23:15] I love this vault <3 23:29] * doy changes topic to 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl (new and improved! and possibly buggy... let me know) | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 23:31] * sorear changes topic to 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl (new and improved! and possibly buggy... let doy know) | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."' 23:31] * Ero has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:33] * Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 23:34] mu <3 23:34] yo 23:34] Mu_: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 23:34] workin on what? 23:34] :p 23:35] the Cigotuvi Monster thing. 23:35] o ok cool 23:35] Currently working on Pikel's stair thing. 23:35] Nemelex grants decks over deep water (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=547) by fiyawerx 23:38] * Giomancer has joined ##crawl-dev 23:39] Hi Giomancer. 23:39] Herro! 23:39] Basically, the only rule for hanging out here is that if you have to contribute to crawl development! 23:39] But yeah, nont invite-only, that would be bad. 23:39] ..I contributed! 23:43] due: wait, does that mean I have to leave? :( 23:43] ogaz: No, you contribute. 23:44] * Ashenzari has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 23:44] * Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 23:45] * Giomancer has quit IRC ("Do fish get thirsty?") 23:46] * Kil2 has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) Session Time: Mon Jan 25 00:00:00 2010 00:09] * by has joined ##crawl-dev 00:09] * ChanServ sets mode: +v by 00:09] hi 00:09] by: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 00:09] !messages 00:09] (1/1) dpeg said (6h 36m 57s ago): Is your godconducts refactory in any way related to the idea of tracking more conducts? 00:09] Hey rob. 00:10] !tell dpeg No, I just moved code. 00:10] by: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 00:10] Are you working at all on dpeg's god conducts plan? sorear and I were discussing it earlier, and then dpeg and I did. 00:10] due: no, not at all 00:10] Okay 00:10] just cleaning up prior to doing the ponderous stuff for Che 00:10] It shouldn't be difficult to implement for 0.7, to be honet. 00:10] *honest. 00:10] Just a matter of adding hooks for the new conducts in at the elevant places, and a way of storing "history" of conducts. 00:10] I'm sure 00:11] i'm kinda interested to see how much stuff is going to end up going into 0.7 00:11] but not something that needs to be done now, is it? 00:11] by: No, definitely not 00:11] we've been saying "we'll do this in 0.7" for a pretty large group of things 00:11] (: 00:11] make a 0.7 wiki page :) 00:12] hmmm, that might be a good idea 00:13] doy: I think dpeg has a list already :) 00:13] or maybe he has sdtarted an 0.7 wiki page 00:13] i'm sure he does 00:13] (: 00:16] :) 00:19] I wonder if there will be any glyphrargh. Hope not. 00:20] does ENCH_CHARM imply friendly? 00:20] oh, i'm sure there will be, just because there always is 00:20] but these changes don't seem like they'd be too bad 00:21] Whoa 00:21] rargh is a word now? 00:21] There's a section on contentious speech in the Donald wiki page,and i never noticed it :) 00:23] what do people think about allowing to stab friendly monsters? 00:24] A good idea. 00:24] and if yes, should they get "confused" or "distracted" stab bonus? 00:24] Distracted. 00:24] Your firends don't expect you to stab them in the back. 00:24] UCAT_DISTRACTED is the lowest 00:24] I guess it fits well 00:25] 03due * rfce9e9888d1e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (files.cc mon-stuff.cc mon-stuff.h): Pikel's slaves turn neutral when he follows you off the level. 00:25] Just need to fix individual slaves now. 00:25] Should be easyish. 00:27] due: yes, not a fan of monsters making meta-references in their speech 00:28] hmm, from the messages (that depend on the bonus), UCAT_CONFUSED is closer: You catch ... completely off-guard; you strike ... from behind." 00:31] doy: Some of them should go. Which did you dislike? 00:33] So long as they're amusing without understanding the meta-reference, I think they should stay. 00:33] The gold one is probably too meta ,now that I think about it. 00:33] yes 00:33] Twenty-seven reference is fine, surely monsters can count staircases... 00:34] references to grey elves and glamour are kinda iffy 00:34] I think glamour's fine. 00:34] Mostly because that's what a lot of peopple associate with elves. 00:34] At least, I do. 00:35] yeah, that's true 00:35] The grey one is quuite subtle. 00:35] And I loved the brown snake one. :( 00:35] "I hate the colour green. I hate light green even more." <- not sure about this one 00:36] "There's a difference between guardian serpents and nagas? I never noticed." <- i think you're just being bitter here d: 00:36] * syllogism has quit IRC 00:36] :p 00:36] Actually 00:36] That was ogaz. 00:36] heh 00:36] I'll trim it to "I hate the colour green." 00:36] It was? 00:36] Or Mu. 00:37] what 00:37] Pretty sure it wasn't me, though. I decided to avoid writing any references to them for exactly this purposes. 00:37] So I could declaim any association with it and claims of bias :) 00:37] and yeah, don't really like the brown/black/grey snake one either 00:37] maybe it was pointless, I remember he had a bunch of good ones about gods 00:37] i did some of the naga/serpent references but not that one 00:38] @The_monster@ says, "I really didn't expect a pair of shoes to bite me." 00:38] Is that better? 00:38] the one about nagas being stealthy is a bit meta, since only players have a concept of stealth 00:38] Aww, the guide one is cute. 00:38] what if the gold reference was the other way around, "I'll never be able to carry all of this gold." 00:38] But too meta. 00:38] Mu_: I like that. 00:38] I'm unconvinced that meta is bad 00:39] ogaz: It just depends. 00:39] I'm leavnig the guide book one in. 00:39] hrm, i don't like most of the hall of blades ones 00:39] well, maybe not most 00:39] but there are a bunch 00:39] doy: you should provide new non-meta ones to drown those out! 00:39] by: yeah, yeah, i know d: 00:39] I'm leaving the blades ones. 00:40] Mostly because every time I read them? 00:40] I snigged like an idiot. 00:40] @The_monster@ says, "I didn't find what I was looking for. Maybe they'll restock." 00:40] <3 00:40] but really, I don't care if they're removed; collecting them was fun anyway 00:40] Yeah. 00:40] "How can an animated sword scowl?" <- donald should not be making bug reports d: 00:40] Eh, who says we can't have a bit of fun? 00:40] @The_monster@ says, "I feel like half the man I was before coming here." <-Is that a draining reference? 00:40] ogaz: yes 00:40] ogaz: Yes. 00:40] Which is probably more okay than the scowling one. 00:41] the draining one is vaguely okay, i don't like the 'portal to the Abyss' much, but don't feel incredibly strongly 00:41] "How does space distort wildly around something?" is bad 00:41] Well, the idea is that he's been there before. 00:41] Yeah, I nuked that one. 00:42] I think the abyss one is okay, though. 00:42] "What's a bardiche?" is also bad 00:42] Why? 00:42] what would even prompt him to be asking that 00:42] lol :s 00:42] He looked it up in his guidebook. 00:42] (AKA, the manual and user interface.) 00:42] due: at which point he'd know what a bardiche is d: 00:42] Yes, that's pretty meta, but I think it's acceptable. 00:42] donald has no user interface 00:43] that's the whole point of the "meta" issues 00:43] But he's the player. 00:43] I'm not a fan of "Animated weapons are so last century." 00:43] no 00:43] Well, a player analogue. 00:43] but he's entirely in-game though 00:43] the speed one should go. 00:44] "I just hope they don't have the liches behind glass, I hate that" 00:44] <3 00:44] Aw, come one, what's not to love? 00:45] it seems fair that a real creature in the real crawl game world would be interested in a weapon with the speed enchantment :p 00:45] 03by * rd2c5c8df9f94 10/crawl-ref/source/ (fight.cc fight.h): Allow stabbing of friendly monsters. 00:45] *come on. 00:45] donald doesn't have any concept of multiple different crypt endings d: 00:45] clearly, donald meta speech needs an option :) 00:45] heh 00:45] Liches behind glass stays. 00:45] meh 00:46] I already dumped other stuff you didn't like. 00:46] i'll come up with something to replace it in a bit 00:46] (: 00:46] No, don't replace it. 00:46] Make it additional. 00:46] meh 00:47] bleh, tired of looking through speech for now 00:47] i'll look through some more later 00:47] I don't think that meta is inherently bad. 00:47] But too meta without being funny or interesting for other reasons is bad. 00:47] due: "I hate stupid dietary laws! If I wanna eat a cow, I'll eat a cow!" Maybe cow should be changed to an intelligent enemy? 00:48] 03due * rf6b589340dd4 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/database/monspeak.txt: Tweak Donald speech slightly. 00:48] is "Why does everyone get mad at me when I started talking?" too meta? :p 00:48] start* 00:49] Mu_: No. <3 00:52] * ogaz has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 00:55] why did all of the racial aptitudes get rounded up? 00:55] hmmm? 00:56] they're all divisible by ten now ? 00:57] that happened a while ago, didn't it? 00:57] didn't notice 00:58] yeah, last august 00:58] 05f78a67 01:02] ah 01:20] I considered trying Jiyva, but reading the wiki pages makes me not want to 01:37] I am back 01:37] by: I'm trying Fedhas 01:38] guess Fedhas would be interesting on a summoner with the plant-fighting changes 01:39] Hm 01:39] Fedhas is still giving depub meggasge 01:39] Upgrading 1 fungi to wandering mushroom (piety cost) 01:39] Er, debug messages. 01:43] Eronarn: I didn't start on corpse weights yet, no. Not interesting enough to jump on rapidly, and I was waiting to hear what you had in mind first 01:44] Hmm I should probably put that in a tell. 01:44] !tell Eronarn I didn't start on corpse weights yet, no. Not interesting enough to jump on rapidly, and I was waiting to hear what you had in mind first 01:44] Twinge: OK, I'll let Eronarn know. 01:52] * Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:52] * ChanServ sets mode: +v Zaba 01:53] * kloeri_ has quit IRC ("leaving") 02:02] hey Zaba 02:04] * Zaba_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:04] Or not. 02:09] Morning-ish! 02:09] Heya Keskitalo! Alligators are in! :D 02:14] Scary! 02:14] And (psst) baby alligators. ;) 02:14] Cute! 02:15] If there's a single tree in between you and a wall you're targeting with LRD, the message says "There's a wall in the way" 02:15] Kesk: I like how close those words are in Japanese. Kowai! Kawaii! 02:16] Twinge: Hehe, didn't know that. 02:16] st_: And if there's two? 02:16] then you wouldn't be able to see the wall behind them I guess 02:16] st_: But yeah, it probably only checks for MAX_SOLID and then goes "No, no, no!" and says it's a wall. 02:16] File it! We can adjust. 02:27] due: Good temple post btw! 02:28] Keskitalo: Thanks! I'm working on one for the glyph changes, and then I need to chat with the various god people. 02:28] @The_monster@ says, "That slouch can't be good for your back." 02:28] :D New chei speech for Donald! 02:28] Oh wow 02:29] Necrophages rot with decomposition? Nice 02:31] Fedhas seems really good to me. 02:31] Yeah, Fedhas is nice and polished. 02:32] I had the most fun Lair:1 thanks to (a) all the plants and fungi and open space in the new Lair and (b) blink frogs. 02:33] Is there anything we could do to make the rat packs interesting? :P 02:33] Make them breathe fire. 02:33] I think Jiyva and Cheibriados really need the most work for 0.6. 02:34] I wonder if they could get some sort of a group attack. :) 02:40] Maybe even just making them slightly more threatening; they also have the annoyance if just being a lot of them together, which can be bothersome if there are also other mobs around 02:40] I don't think they need or even should have any especially unique attribute probably 02:41] Green rats and grey rats kill me pretty quickly. 02:42] You can use decomposition to kill zombies? <3 02:46] Okay, I think they're all right then. 02:46] due: Yeah, ones that don't have skeletons. They just decompose away! 02:46] That is so aweosme. 02:50] * henryci has quit IRC 02:52] Hm 02:52] If you stand on a plant and hit 'o' it goes "Done searching". 02:52] Or not. Weird. 02:54] Keskitalo: Actually, I think poisoned items count, as they're unchivalric. I could be wrong, too lazy to check. 02:54] * scarf has joined ##crawl-dev 02:54] scarf! horay, my neck is cold. 02:55] hmm, I'm still waking up 02:55] due: You're making me check them now. :| :D 02:56] Keskitalo: I have an SpVM of Fedhas turned stabber. It is... hideously fun. 02:56] Hideous as in good. 02:56] due: Nope, TSO don't take poisonous arrows. 02:56] Ah, cool. 02:56] Thanks, I had wondered about that myself. 02:57] Mwahahaha, David's oklob lair entry can't harm me now! 03:02] A whole new option to deal with oklob vaults: convert to Fedhas. :P That's a free perk right from the conversion. 03:02] I knooow. 03:03] Hope to see it in actual play! <3 03:03] * Yeznik has quit IRC ("If making a DsSu wasn't horrendously stupid to begin with..") 03:03] Luuunch! 03:04] I wish. :| Claaaassss. 03:04] No, for my Sprig :) 03:04] Bee vault! <3 03:14] elly: Around? What was the good free Windows debugger you mentioned previously? 03:14] windbg 03:14] * elly is _always_ around :P 03:14] Hee. :) 03:15] It's annoying to use, but powerful. 03:24] * st__ has joined ##crawl-dev 03:25] * st_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:41] new hives are nice 03:48] * scarf has quit IRC 03:48] * scarf has joined ##crawl-dev 03:51] there's no extra damage in shallow water at all anymore? 03:57] by, how about adding a new warning sign saying that you are fighting in shallow water 03:58] make it a status or something 03:58] having to do xlh to cehck if you are in shallow water is a bit clunky 03:59] you mean like Fly Slow etc? 03:59] I return. 03:59] by: None. 03:59] by, yeah 03:59] I kinda like that idea. 03:59] might not fit 03:59] but the idea is cool 04:00] "Wet" 04:00] "Swim" 04:00] I don't think of standing in shallow water as swimming 04:00] how does the electro/cold thingie word when hitting water creatures if you are in shallow? 04:01] do you get yourself affected? 04:01] just make it 'unstable' and you can use it for other stuff 04:01] unstable sounds like teleportation 04:01] Wade 04:01] Wade is nice 04:01] being adjacent to multiple rats puts you on unstable footing ;p 04:01] sand 04:03] Mu_: That's just the kind of thing for rat packs :D 04:04] :) 04:05] by, should I post a FR about it? 04:05] sure 04:06] hmm, "Interface Improvements" or "Feature Request"? :D 04:06] latter, probably 04:06] FR 04:07] though I'm not sure you'd notice it any more than the current "unstable footing" message 04:07] I'd do 04:07] maybe just give that a brighter colour? 04:07] I don't read those messages that carefully 04:07] by, well, the message only shows up on a turn event like you are hitting 04:07] instead of being there the turn you enter shallow water 04:08] yes 04:08] what if you electrocute yourself :) 04:08] submitted 04:09] http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=548 04:10] Adding shallow water as a status (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=548) by cbus 04:12] Shoals and Snake! 04:16] * Spads has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 04:16] Nearby toadstools withering and dying needs to not be an interrupt message. 04:33] I'm going to bed, night. 04:37] * Zaba_ has joined ##crawl-dev 04:37] * ChanServ sets mode: +v Zaba_ 04:48] * Zaba has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:53] 03kilobyte * re8fa64ae89b7 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Hasting others makes things faster, so CB hates that. 04:53] 03kilobyte * rca2f0d0f8852 10/crawl-ref/source/godabil.cc: Try to eject monsters from your spot when you step back into time. 04:53] 03kilobyte * r9a9cb988deb0 10/crawl-ref/source/command.cc: &) has changed meaning, update the help. 05:02] * Spads has joined ##crawl-dev 05:13] * dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 05:13] * ChanServ sets mode: +o dpeg 05:13] Cheers 05:13] dpeg: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them. 05:13] !messages 05:13] (1/2) Cryp71c said (16h 30m 18s ago): implementing some of Twinge's Xom ideas, notably Monster:4, Other:3-5 to start with. 05:15] * Timbermaw has joined ##crawl-dev 05:18] * syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 05:18] !tell Cryp71c Hey, that's cool but why didn't you choose ideas that are fully uncontroversial? 05:18] dpeg: OK, I'll let Cryp71c know. 05:18] !messages 05:18] (1/1) by said (5h 8m 52s ago): No, I just moved code. 05:19] !tell due by has official no plan to do conducts. 05:19] dpeg: OK, I'll let due know. 05:24] dpeg, http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=548 05:27] supported 05:27] nice :) 05:27] yes you should show deep water as well 05:27] Cok 05:27] I'm paranoid about it when disabling levitation 05:28] ok 05:28] yeah, that sounds nice too, and throw in lava while at it 05:28] :D 05:28] syllogism: yes, this is one of the uses. (The other is about dropping things.) 05:30] or you could just disallow disabling levitation over deep water 05:30] :) 05:30] seems like another of those die y/n prompts 05:30] ah, disabling 05:30] yes, that is true 05:31] syllogism, well it can still run out though :D 05:31] syllogism: there might be borderline cases where it's useful :) 05:31] so the warning is still needed 05:31] dpeg, yeah, Mf 05:31] cbus: sure 05:31] not only Mf 05:32] @ over deep water with exactly one adjacent non-water square which has a crucial item :) 05:36] syllogism: die y/n should require a /capital/ Y 05:37] scarf: it is not necessarily death 05:37] scarf: it did 05:37] because you might be next to land, and scramble 05:37] hmm, what are the options for scrambling from water at the moment? 05:38] death? 05:38] NetHack does all sorts of things, like attempting to cast a teleport automatically when you fall in to avoid death 05:38] in Crawl, presumably the equivalent would be a reflexive blink 05:38] "You fall into the water! You hastily read a scroll of blink!" 05:38] maybe Fedhasites could reflexively invoke Sunlight 05:38] no to all of this 05:39] scrambling chances are surprisingly good 05:40] dpeg: scrambling's no good if you're not next to shore, though 05:40] (also, as a relatively unspoilt player for the amount of wizmoding I do, I didn't even realise the chance wasn't 100%) 05:41] (which would be a nethack-style unfair instadeath if an unspoilt player relied on scrambling in the lategame) 05:42] that would just be stupid as it has no utility besides saving you from instadeath 05:43] syllogism: I don't see why that's a bad thing 05:43] I mean "relying on scrambling" 05:44] oh 05:44] it does have utility, when you're confused and next to deep water 05:44] unless you are falling into deep water on purpose you aren't relying on anything 05:44] I've been doing it all the time when farming golden eyes in the Abyss 05:44] that's true, but can you even scramble confused 05:44] you can probably 05:44] apparently you cna 05:44] *can 05:45] also, you could use it for escaping a fight quickly 05:45] you can't enter deep water without levitation or by being confused 05:45] in some situations, a 50-50 chance of moving two squares is better than a 100% chance of not being able to escape and dying next turn 05:45] although, the "why would you want to do that?" rather cuts off that tactic 05:45] plus it probably always puts you on the same square if it can 05:46] I don't think so, although I'm not sure 05:46] I seem to remember moving with it during my abyss experiments 05:46] I remember experimenting somewhat back when you could enter deep water voluntarily but it was only a few tries 05:50] ideally, entering voluntarily would be possible, but not by pressing the direction key 05:50] some sort of "I really mean move" prefix, like holding control means "I really mean don't move" 05:51] !tell by Could it be that there is a forced --more-- after level gains? 05:51] dpeg: OK, I'll let by know. 05:52] is there any way to prevent crawl from clearing the ^P buffer all the time? 05:52] cbus: oh, I noticed that and thought it was a bug, but forgot to submit it 05:52] it feels wrong when I press ^P and only get three messages 05:53] I see a skill level up, I press ^P to check back on it and have to scroll up with < (didn't numpad use to work), thats pretty much the only thing I use ^P so it's very awkward 05:53] cbus: bug! 05:53] dpeg, I think it's reported 05:54] maybe not 05:54] reporting 05:55] posted 05:56] tell thank you 05:56] -tell 05:56] ^P clearing messages (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=549) by cbus 05:56] "glowing" suppressed when cycling ammunition (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=550) by dpeg 05:59] * Madtrixr has joined ##crawl-dev 06:03] * culcube has joined ##crawl-dev 06:06] dpeg: yes 06:07] should we kill it? 06:07] by: sure! 06:07] by, kilobyte: sorry for the long mail on Che. I tried to make it short, but I failed. 06:08] dpeg: did you see scarf's suggestion to make armour unponder on taking off, with a piety cost for making it ponderous? 06:09] by: on the more prompt: perhaps disable it only if messages are not cleared? 06:10] by: yes. But it's not ideal either. If we want to discourage changing armours (which is an interesting conduct), then we need to improve ponderous armours a lot. Se mail. 06:10] maybe a more prompt in the end only if you're not prompted for a stat and if clear_messages is set? 06:10] 03dolorous * re9ad877268ea 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Make phantoms and shadows levitate, for consistency with all other 'p's. 06:12] by: yes, that is ideal 06:13] hmm, there's some information after the stat increase; I'll put a more at the end 06:25] at 60ish ev ancient lich spells are so inaccurate it takes them 70-140 turns to kill you assuming 27 fighting 06:25] Moin guys! 06:26] Hallooo! 06:26] David :D How's it going? 06:26] syllogism: and 60 EV is possible now, right? 06:26] yes 06:26] Napkin: busy 06:26] syllogism: how hard is it to get there? 06:27] relatively hard unless you put all your points into dex and are a spriggan 06:27] Even 40 EV is very strong 06:27] did you see what the meany greensnark did to my precious broad axes?! :> all 1.5 hands dealed with equally - only those poor, poor axes left behind *sniffle* 06:27] Players always whine about EV being weak, but they're flat wrong :P 06:27] they were fairly accurate at 38ev 06:27] oh, hey greensnark :D 06:27] Yes, it's not nearly so useful against ranged attackers with good HD 06:27] right 06:27] so you'll need deflect missiles too :P 06:28] Yep :P 06:28] greensnark: should we react immediately? (pre 0.6) 06:28] for pedagogical reasons, I could live with runaway EV until 0.7 06:28] dpeg: Step down at, say 45 EV sounds good to me :P 06:28] We don't have to do it for 0.6 06:28] it may not be necessary really 06:28] Let players get used to it, so that we can enjoy the nerf at 0.7 :P 06:28] greensnark: well, if we do this (fine with me!), we should also step down AC :) 06:28] greensnark: yes, like a good teacher 06:28] Let's not do it for 0.6 06:29] Best to study how it plays out in real games first 06:29] "And this, dear suckers, is something you missed all the time. We have removed it just now." 06:29] greensnark: You bastard. 06:29] greensnark: ok 06:29] Madtrixr: Welcome to ##crawl-dev, aka ##crawl-sadism 06:30] Yeah. 06:30] Bashing players to let off some steam since 1830. 06:30] I must say, something strikes me as very wrong when the devteam cheer when SHoals kills people 06:30] I decided to lurk here to observe the devolpment process. 06:30] the advice on the SA forums is currently to leave it until after Elf (!) 06:30] hey doy? how did you make one log in http://tozt.net/crawl be octet/stream while the most recent one is text and displayed as such in a browser? 06:30] scarf: should we send condolence mails? 06:30] No Shoals kills lately :'( 06:30] dpeg: get Xom to do it 06:30] occasionally 06:30] But Adeon's rune grab was <3 06:30] elf 1-6 has always been pretty safe 06:30] Instead, I stumble upon a hive of scourge and villany. 06:30] i would certainly do elf 1-6 before snake 5 06:31] Madtrixr: you are looking inside the brains that brought you DCSS0.1-0.5. What, in all honesty, did you expect? 06:31] A safe heaven of peace and democracy? 06:31] hmm, I tend to leave Orc until later in the game, those priests are a pain to deal with 06:31] greensnark: did you see Sticking v Mara? 06:31] except as a Beoghite, of course 06:31] Upright citizens patiently demonstrating the values of labour and love? 06:31] tempted to do a demigod but no nemelex then :P 06:31] by: No 06:32] I didn't expect the Old Gods speaking in their Infernal Deeptongue, planning to end the lives of all who attempt their twisted challenges. 06:32] unfortunately, neither won, so it's hard to footv 06:32] Oh 06:32] stalemate, nice 06:32] Yeah, I saw his 0121 fight already 06:32] dpeg: nice guardian spirit action, also 06:32] I proposed letting Crawl write an append-only file with timestamps every 100 turns 06:33] That way FooTV could seek by turn 06:33] 0.6 target! 06:33] greensnark: how large would it be? 06:33] how about every 500 turns? 06:33] !lg * max=turn 06:33] 518182. Stabwound the Farming Skullcrusher (L27 MuSu), worshipper of Nemelex Xobeh, escaped with the Orb and 111 runes on 2008-03-09, with 9425283 points after 92568259 turns and 128:15:16. 06:33] could just stop at some point 06:33] wait what? 06:34] Every 500 turns also works, and yes, we can just stop after 1M turns 06:34] I'm impressed that they managed that many turns in that short a time 06:34] scarf: Mummy macrobot 06:34] I know 06:34] Place brick on macro, let cao cpu take the beating :P 06:34] according to nethack wikia, it's possible to overflow nethack's turncount in 17 days 06:34] bzip internally! 06:34] presumably it would take a bit longer in Crawl 06:36] cdo has way less players than cao - yet I am running low on diskspace... didn't expect 30 additional gb to be eaten up that quickly! (when I moved the server..) 06:36] how is Rax dealing with all that disk usage? 06:36] Do you compress the .lst files? 06:36] They can be pretty big 06:36] She bzips the .lst and ttyrecs 06:37] no, morgues are prestine until today 06:37] i only bzip ttyrecs 06:37] The morgue .txt files are not compressed on cao 06:37] But the .lst and .map files are 06:37] You get three files on end-of-game 06:37] .txt with the character dump, .map with the final level map, .lst with a list of all items in the stash tracker 06:37] .lst tends to be huuuuge :P 06:37] And nobody reads .lst 06:38] root@ipx14623:/var/lib/dgamelaunch/crawl-svn/morgue> du -sk */*.lst */*.map 06:38] -bash: /usr/bin/du: Argument list too long 06:38] hahaha 06:38] You can just delete .lst after, say 7 days 06:38] And same for .map 06:38] .map contains a last screenshot, right? 06:38] Not exactly a screenshot 06:38] A dump of the full level map 06:38] 80x70 06:38] what is it used for? 06:39] Debugging map problems, mostly 06:39] oh, ok 06:39] it is useful for seeing what vault you died in, for example 06:39] .map is good, but can go after a week 06:40] 38985 map files 06:40] rm ! 06:40] a bit more lst files 06:40] I imagine .lst would be dwarfed by the ttyrecs 06:40] Yes 06:40] But ttyrecs are compressed 06:40] if somebody really wanted, they could get map and lst from the ttyrec anyway? 06:40] I wonder if rm */*.lst would also give argument list too long 06:40] They'll still be bigger than the .lst 06:40] scarf: Yes, it would 06:40] But you can use find and exec 06:40] yes.. need to use find 06:40] find and xargs, agreed 06:41] -exec is quicker :) 06:41] dpeg: no, I think you can get artefacts identified in the .lst 06:41] by: ah, true 06:41] e.g. what was the sword in stone :) 06:41] "A mimic" 06:41] morgue folder of trunk/master is just 680mb 06:42] ttyrecs must be several G, right? 06:42] I found why paralysis has been so obnoxious recently: forgot to implement any_messages 06:42] checking... 06:42] FooTV almost filled up disk here because I hadn't put in a ttyrec GC policy :P 06:42] ~25gb 06:43] I plan to take some 50gb from another partition.. but that will mean downtime 06:44] Napkin: 25 gb over the years? 06:44] yeah 06:44] Napkin: Can I rsync ttyrecs from cdo? 06:44] and remember.. on the old server i used to delete them after a while 06:45] I have a second 1.5T hard disk in my desktop that's almost unused 06:45] hehehe 06:45] what then? serve them from there? 06:45] With my pitiful bandwidth it'd take almost a week :P 06:45] No, just as a backup :P 06:45] hehe 06:45] sure, better start it today then ;) 06:45] Cool 06:46] ~dgl/dgldir/ttyrec/ 06:46] ~dgl/../dgldir/ttyrec/ 06:46] Awesome 06:49] rm freed up 171mb 06:50] Heh 06:51] rm freed up another 236mb 06:51] almost half a gig :D 06:51] thanks :-* 06:52] greensnark - running two rsyncs? 06:53] Ohg 06:53] Sorryt 06:53] one with -vlogDtpre.iLs the other with -vlogDtprze.iLs 06:54] I'm not sure what exactly I did there 06:54] one left - thanks :) 06:55] ohh.. 2 again? 06:55] ...! 06:55] Let me kill them both 06:55] should i kill both? 06:55] :D 06:55] be my guest :) 06:55] Do you have nay running now? 06:55] -z doesn't help much 06:55] since it's bzipped already 06:55] one left now 06:55] Can you kill that? 06:55] That must be an orphan 06:55] done 06:56] Ok, will restart 06:56] Don't you have a lot of uncompressed .txt files? 06:56] where? in ttyrecs folder? 06:56] not that I know of 06:56] Oh, right, these are just ttyrecs 06:56] Ok, restarted without -z 06:57] great :) 06:57] Napkin: The other thing I do is throw many gigabytes at it. 06:57] rax: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 06:57] I was right. Watching you guys go at it is fascinating, even if over my head a bit. 06:57] 03dolorous * r2094260a190d 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Update _item_race_matches_monster() to account for dwarves, 06:57] hehehe, Rax :D 06:57] Napkin: Can I starta second rsync for morgue :P 06:57] (150GB for the chroot) 06:57] !messages 06:57] (1/1) dpeg said (16h 31m 2s ago): Hi there! Would you mind showing both CAO and CDO statistics on the akrasiac page? (Could make them coloured differently.) 06:57] yeah.. 30gb previously.. and now the additional 20gb got eaten like nothing :D 06:57] !tell dpeg Talked about it with greensnark, we're going to make an alpha page. CDO statistics for released versions are already shown. 06:57] rax: OK, I'll let dpeg know. 06:58] be my guest, greensnark :D 06:58] ~dgl/../crawl-svn/morgue/ 06:58] Yay 06:58] why are you so afraid suddenly? 06:58] still don't trust me? :-P 06:59] No no :) 06:59] "Disaster recoivery" :) 06:59] ;) 06:59] backup is good (tm) 06:59] shopping! 06:59] Also I can test scoring scripts and stuff better if I have it local 06:59] yes :) 06:59] rax: thank you! 06:59] dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 07:00] * scarf is now known as scarf|away 07:00] * Ashenzari has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) 07:00] currently, CAO only has a pitiful four users. 07:01] rofl! http://666kb.com/i/bg4nc0nco3pmgxssx.jpg <- not totally politically correct :D 07:01] * Napkin ducks and runs off * 07:02] * greensnark fires guided porcupines at Napkin. 07:03] * Madtrixr rofls 07:04] Napkin: you meet the wrong people! 07:05] greensnark: wasn't very nice actually :P 07:05] they were coming faster than I was abjuring 07:05] Napkin: Because it's somehow more socially acceptable to touch women without their consent. 07:08] 03dolorous * r06b9c1bc86c2 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Fix [2827189]: Remove electricity resistance from liches. 07:09] rax: I always found it bad when somebody (especially males) touch pregnant women without asking. Or with semi-asking, like "Oh, can I touch?" and touch right away. 07:09] seen that a lot 07:10] this ossuary had pretty tasty loot 07:11] syllogism: which layout? 07:12] Don't tell him!! 07:12] ttyrec! 07:12] You know what will happen :P 07:12] He'll nerf it! 07:12] greensnark: or else I nerf loot across the board. 07:12] the one with three guardian mummies behind GLASS and another one guarding the final treasure room 07:12] well it was just scrolls and potions but there were many :P 07:12] hey, due is responsible 07:12] syllogism: any danger? 07:12] but the mummy is speed 9 so I just ran around until it I lost it and then looted :P 07:13] until I lost it even 07:14] hm, not good 07:14] spells:haste 07:14] could at least make it guard the area 07:14] this requires immediate action 07:15] it is good to have players with an understanding of balance =) 07:15] :D 07:16] Bad player: "I've won but it was so hard. What a mess!" 07:16] Good player: "I've won. Think A, B, C should be nerfed." 07:20] what's with the random yellow floor tiles 07:21] syllogism: where? 07:21] here 07:21] oh wait 07:21] Omigod, immortal zipcode splat 07:21] the portal was there 07:21] but doesn't it usually leave an arch 07:23] !tv n78291 shoal 07:23] 7. 78291, XL20 SpTm, T:72672 requested for FooTV. 07:26] dolorous just stole rElec from liches! 07:27] dpeg: That's a D&D trope :P 07:27] is this for consistency with lich form? 07:27] D&D liches are immune to electricity :) 07:27] greensnark: very good, I support the change :) 07:27] :D 07:28] * timecircuits has quit IRC ("Leaving.") 07:28] "Design principle 1: If in doubt, do it unlike Nethack and D&D." 07:28] * ogaz has joined ##crawl-dev 07:32] syllogism: hm, the guardian mummy IS patrolling. 07:32] Perhaps we need more than one? 07:32] maybe it didn't want to open the doors 07:37] syllogism: was it due_mausoleum? 07:37] yes 07:38] that should have two guardian mummies 07:38] 03dolorous * r69777bf649da 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.h: Add spacing fix. 07:38] 03dolorous * r247cc8748862 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Add wording fixes. 07:38] ah, no 07:38] i see one 07:38] * Siber is now known as SiberSchool 07:39] syllogism: would it help if all the secret doors disappear if one is opened? 07:39] 03dolorous * r6c84e91fc83b 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Add comment and spacing fixes. 07:39] i don't know how eager it is to open those outer doors, I closed them 07:40] should remove that escape portal in the treasure room 07:40] yes, this is why I think that removing all those doors in the treasure room could help 07:40] although you can still run in circles 07:40] so.... only one door 07:40] and no portal 07:40] * Giomancer has joined ##Crawl-Dev 07:40] you mean the outer doors too? 07:41] no, only the four secret doors in the treasure room 07:41] I didn't even close the secret door, I ran around the outer walls, not the treasure room 07:46] * timecircuits has joined ##crawl-dev 07:47] syllogism: yes, that would not be possible with only one door 07:47] why 07:48] you have to get in (to the loot) and cannot leave in another way, to run circles 07:52] indeed, Rax! 08:00] syllogism: just played the map: the mummy is hopelessly confused by the doors :( 08:00] thought so 08:00] Does anyone know if patrolling actually works? 08:00] cerebov seems to return to his rune pretty quick 08:01] cool 08:03] Napkin: likely because the server is guessing on the mime type based on the file contents, since i haven't specified anything for .log, and i haven't gotten around to stripping mirc color codes from the logging stuff yet 08:04] ah, ok 08:04] mime_magic rules ;D 08:10] okay, only one door and portal will help at least a bit 08:10] and loot is indeed obscene -- what was Jude thinking? 08:12] * Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 08:13] Hi Cryp71c 08:13] dpeg, morning! 08:13] Cryp71c: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 08:13] 03dpeg * rb6d436145858 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/ossuary.des: Make ossuary_due_mausoleum harder. (syllogism) 08:14] I wasn't aware those weren't completely uncontroversial, :P 08:14] Ah, you're referring to why I picked Xom ideas vs the approved Interface ones. 08:15] The interface ones are great with me, Twinge just jumped at the opportunity at having someone implement his Xom ideas, I think. 08:15] no, why did you pick these particular Xom ideas :) 08:15] I can do his somewehre down the line, I think. 08:15] ah, I see 08:15] -@The_monster@ says, "What's a bardiche?" 08:15] +@The_monster@ says, "What do you do with a bardiche, anyway?" 08:15] You are Twinge's coding slave :) 08:15] doh I like the first one more 08:15] its something I would say 08:15] :D 08:15] cbus, what's a lochaber axe? 08:15] Donald == cbus 08:15] ogaz, the best polearm 08:15] greensnark: yes! 08:16] dpeg, lol..which would you recommend that are fully uncontroversial? 08:16] any additional good effects :P 08:16] Cryp71c: well, there was some criticism on one of the three you picked :) 08:16] Cryp71c: I even **bold-faced** Xom ideas I really like. 08:18] * Giomancer has quit IRC ("There's nothing dirtier then a giant ball of oil") 08:18] dpeg, I don't see any criticism on the ones I was looking at (although none are bold-faced). The ones I was looking at are all under the 'New Ideas' header. 08:18] * eith has joined ##crawl-dev 08:19] Cryp71c: there is a comment on Others 3. 08:20] oh, it is by Twinge -- but didn't you say you'd do Others 3? 08:20] * dpeg is confused. 08:21] dpeg, "New Ideas" header, look a bit further down ;) 08:21] Cryp71c: ok, which points again? 08:21] * by has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 08:21] why don't people add their "new ideas" to the existing entrieS? 08:21] Why do I provide some structure? 08:22] dpeg, at the top the wiki explicitly states to add new ideas to the 'New ideas' header and not in the current lists. 08:22] erm, why did I write that? :) 08:22] * dpeg distances himself from dpeg- 08:22] :) 08:23] Some of the ones that are bold faced seem a bit more elaborate, but I'll see which of them I can tackle. 08:25] * Ashenzari has joined ##crawl-dev 08:26] * by has joined ##crawl-dev 08:26] * ChanServ sets mode: +v by 08:27] I guess I wrote because I wanted to make sure that nobody else consolidates that page. Wasn't a bright move. 08:29] dpeg, there are far too many functions to sift through, do you know if theres an easy way to check if a monster (or a certain class of monster, [snakes]) exist in LOS? 08:30] Cryp71c: I am code illiterate! 08:30] But by is here :) 08:30] ohya :P sorry 08:30] =p 08:31] Cryp71c: my job is to bash Crawl with a nerf hammer, blindly. 08:31] Cryp71c: iterate over monsters in LOS with a monster_iterator 08:35] !seen kilobyte 08:35] I last saw kilobyte at Mon Jan 25 10:56:23 2010 UTC (4h 39m 41s ago) saying !lg * race=MD urune=15 s=char on Henzell. 08:43] 03j-p-e-g * r60cd7af1f5e0 10/crawl-ref/CREDITS.txt: Add Porkchop (he of the many tiles) to the credits. 08:45] * lorimer has quit IRC ("upgrade reboot") 08:46] * greensnark gives dpeg a bigger nerf hammer and a black silk blindfold. 08:47] dpeg, Snakes to sticks => moderate/high tension, good act? 08:47] by? 08:47] you know, the biggest nerf would be "rm -rf crawl-ref/" :-) 08:47] problem with your email account? 08:48] Napkin, yes? 08:49] server got a 550 5.1.1 ... User is unknown {mx091 08:49] when trying to email you 08:49] the -lists address? 08:49] no, the one you used for mantis 08:49] weird 08:50] Cryp71c: tension not needed 08:50] Vehumet no longer needs to give out spellbooks (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=551) by Lemuel 08:52] bhaak is a troll! 08:53] * greensnark eats bhaak's corpse, just to be safe. 08:53] dpeg, so the intent is that Xom randomly turns snakes into sticks, even if the only monster present is a snake? 08:53] that's just constructive criticism! I'm trying to be helpful 08:53] Cryp71c: yes, should be rare 08:54] Cryp71c: Xom sticking a snake on D:1 can bond a new player for lifetime 09:00] Folks, please reply to the private mails. Yeah, they're long but we can wrap up 0.6 if you reply :) 09:05] Jan end release? :) 09:05] Just kidding! :P 09:05] what remains to be done until 0.6 can be released? 09:06] * henryci has joined ##crawl-dev 09:06] Zaba_ must be spanked with an alligator. 09:06] Armour / SH / EV changes have to be finalized, i think that's prob the biggest. 09:07] i think we really should wait at least a little while for the ac/ev/sh changes to settle 09:07] make sure there aren't any glaring issues 09:07] Hi Henry! 09:08] why was the combat penalty for shallow water removed? 09:08] doy, have they been implemented on trunk yet? 09:08] The floundering penalty is still there 09:08] doy: I think this is a misunderstanding. 09:08] What was removed was swamp worms and their ilk getting double damage vs floundering things 09:09] Monsters don't get a water bonus 09:09] anymore 09:09] greensnark: ah, okay 09:09] that's what i thought 09:09] just wanted to make sure 09:09] Zaba_: lots of polish, among others: new gods (C and J need care, F seems okay); the new AC/EV stuff needs some testing (wins help!). 09:09] wins.. I should look into getting one sometime. 09:09] * ogaz has quit IRC ("ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]") 09:10] was the shallow water bonus for amphibious monsters just removed, or replaced by anything? 09:10] dpeg: are you planning with Jiyva for 0.6? 09:11] there are still lair 8 shafts 09:11] * hashc has joined ##crawl-dev 09:12] doy: It was removed 09:12] by: yes of course. 09:12] we got Jiyva almost in time for 0.5 :) 09:13] dpeg: Do you have specific numbers in mind for the dodging and armour training? 09:13] i.e. the (up to constants) bits are stuff to be discussed, or do you already have ideas there 09:14] * henryci has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:14] * henryci has joined ##crawl-dev 09:14] the numbers I would have to invent, but I wanted to discuss the structure, because it's a complete departure of the current training (which is a mess imo) 09:15] it certainly is 09:16] Sounds fine to me 09:16] cool 09:16] I prefer 12*AEVP to just using armour mass 09:16] write it! 09:16] Your letters are always a bit like Moses coming home with the stone tablet :) 09:16] :P 09:17] This Moses person didn't speak much? :) 09:17] by: which monsters have different speeds? 09:17] by: I'd think that for Che, any form of hurried is bad. 09:17] Actually, IIRC Moses had a speech impediment, and was very self-conscious about it, and so did in fact not speak much. 09:18] by: and on Jiyva: we can be a tad more sloppy with that god. Straightening out Che is mandatory, of course. 09:18] rax: so he used tablets and tools to communicate? 09:19] Crazy Yiuf hits you with a runed quarterstaff. 09:19] You fade into invisibility! 09:19] Crazy Yiuf hits you with a runed quarterstaff of chaos. 09:19] You feel much better. 09:19] rofl 09:20] Crazy Yiuf hits you with a runed quarterstaff of chaos. You are banished to the 09:20] Abyss! 09:20] dpeg: There was someone who traveled with him who did a lot of the talking, I forget the exact details of the story. 09:21] guy called aaron 09:21] rax, hashc: interesting, didn't know that 09:22] dpeg: re jiyva, I read the feedback wiki pages and it seems like he needs a lot of work 09:22] doy, D:5, not a big deal to restart :) 09:22] * greensnark wonders if Aaron said what Moses wanted him to say. 09:22] dpeg: the proposals for armour and dodging training seem to make it a lot more likely that all characters will end up training up both armour and dodging a decent amount 09:22] by: hm, I don't think it's so bad. 09:22] which could be an annoying xp sink 09:22] also, the stealth training proposal doesn't address passive stealth training at all 09:23] doy: I really prefer training both (and the player switches on/off skills) to grinding the skills. 09:23] doy: passive stealth training is bad and only used for the first few levels. I think. 09:23] which could be even dispensed with 09:24] @?? deep elf master archer 09:24] deep elf master archer (15e) | Speed: 10 (msl: 60%) | HD: 15 | Health: 60-90 | AC/EV: 0/15 | Damage: 25, 5 | Res: 06magic(100) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1508. 09:24] by: I can play some Jiyvaites, but Cheibriados is more important. Now that Fedhas is on a very good way, we should fix Che next. 09:24] Can we factor in armour masses for training armour/dodging 09:25] Or AEVP 09:25] greensnark: why masses and not AEVP? 09:25] ah yes 09:25] * doy agrees with greensnark 09:25] I think the current code uses armour mass to make heavier armours train faster 09:25] *train armour faster 09:25] @?? snapping turtle 09:25] snapping turtle (03t) | Speed: 9 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 10 | Health: 30-90 | AC/EV: 16/5 | Damage: 30(reach) | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40) | XP: 281. 09:25] greensnark: is still not very fast :) 09:25] dpeg: these are some examples with varied speed 09:25] EV penalty should affect chance of floundering (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=552) by Lemuel 09:25] i think aevp should be used in preference to armour mass in pretty much all places 09:26] doy: for stealth, I want EVP, not AEVP 09:26] but otherwise, yes 09:26] dpeg: whatever, i'm not really clear on the details of that stuff(: 09:26] but yeah 09:26] by: what do you think? DEMA should count as pretty fast for Che purposes, no? 09:26] doy: my proposal also allows to train Armour and Dodging equally, I think that's okay. 09:27] dpeg: not sure; he doesn't mind you using a short blade at high weapon skill 09:27] dpeg: but armour and dodging skills have very unequal effects, depending on the armour you're using 09:27] unless the new formulas changed that significantly 09:27] by: doy which means that you will not train Dodging much in very heavy armour anyway 09:27] -by 09:28] dpeg: the formulas you gave seem to suggest that you'll end up training both of them relatively equally (or at most, one 2-3 times as much as the other) 09:28] by: hm, we could change also that. My take is that players perceive DEMAs as fast attackers, so they would expect Che to be upset abuot them (this is what I think). 09:28] doy: no, because the skills themselves factor in 09:28] damage / skill 09:29] dpeg: that would make them train slower at higher skill, wouldn't it? 09:29] dpeg: But then both skill curves would look quite similar, no? 09:29] also what greensnark said 09:29] greensnark: no, I don't think so 09:30] Hmm, then I don't understand 09:30] if you wear a robe and Armour trains often if you block and less often if you get hit (same for Dodging), then you will train dodging faster than armour 09:30] Oh, that way 09:30] same for plate mail 09:30] with some mail, they may train equally 09:30] Ok, that makes sense 09:31] it would be a much more fluid system, granted 09:31] I'd still like it to be pretty hard to train Dodgin in plate 09:32] 1/3rd the normal dodging rate doesn't seem to do it for me there :) 09:33] I had two ideals: (1) The higher your Armour|Dodging skill, the more damage is needed to train something at all. (2) There is no reason not to train Armour|Dodging, just because you wear the wrong type of armour. If you evade in plate, you train. (This sounds like flavour but is about gameplay.) 09:33] But you also train if you don't evade in plate, no? 09:33] yes, the 1/3 is an important parameter 09:33] greensnark: well, much less, I'd think 09:33] perhaps 1/10 will do 09:33] Or 1/9, a more Crawly number :D 09:33] :P 09:34] the 3*EVP caps are very opaque 09:34] The existing rules are pretty confusing, yes 09:34] With the existing rules I either confine myself to robes 09:34] Or pick up the heaviest armour I can find :P 09:34] Nothing in between :P 09:34] yes 09:34] 03dolorous * r46eeaea3c80d 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-grow.cc: Don't make snapping turtles level up into alligator snapping turtles 09:35] with the new rules, armours in between could be interesting for various reasons (not just AC+EV, but also casting) 09:35] Yes, agree 09:38] * henryci has quit IRC 09:39] When I started thinking about the training, I wondered if "Armour training only on blocks", "Dodging training only on evades" would do. 09:39] But I thought that not. 09:39] That could also work, actually 09:40] Monster attacks are so variable that you'll have enough material to train EV even at 1EV :) 09:40] i think that would be a better starting point anyway 09:40] stone giants have like 50% accuracy even at 0 ev 09:41] hm, fine with me 09:41] it's also a very clear concept :) 09:41] hint: somebody need to reply! 09:41] oh, greensnark did 09:42] cdo update? 09:43] I thought there are snapping turtles and snapping turtles that specialized in snapping alligators - no? 09:44] Napkin: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=545 09:44] (: 09:45] Napkin: all wrong! 09:45] woah? larger and less aggressive relative of the common snapping turtle?! :D 09:46] "can remain submerged for three hours" :> 09:46] hard numbers on the way 09:47] ah, submerging 09:47] hehe 09:49] added 
 tags to that "comment" issue - sorry for the spam ;)
09:49]  quite long name, btw "alligator snapping turtle skeleton"
09:50]  "seven-headed alligator snapping turtle skeleton" ;>
09:51]  doy, Zaba_: please add stuff for 0.6 here http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:testing_and_polish_needed_for_0.6_release
09:51]  forgetting things all the time
09:54]  hm, should ammo of dispersal/reaping autoid when thrown even if they don't do anything?
09:54]  Your armour prevents you from hitting the jackal.
09:54]  you get that with a ROBE?
09:54]  penetration auto-iding seems odd too
09:55]  MarvinPA: no, that's a bug
09:55]  righto, i shall report it then!
09:55]  so many bugs
09:55]  need to hire coders to fix our bugs
09:55]  heh
09:55]  I'll call Redmond.
09:56]  i'll take a look and see if i can fix it, but my coding knowledge is incredibly limited
09:56]  i thought you said "fixing"
09:56]  Napkin: :)
09:56]  ;)
09:56]  Napkin: I guess if we let the Redmond guys fix Crawl, then Crawl will be announced as a security problem in the Tagesschau.
09:56]  uuuh, due changed glyphs again? let's get the uproar started :D
09:56]  hahaha
09:57]  hehe
09:57]  Napkin: his commit started with: "I hope this is not controversial..." Empty hypothesis, because any change to colour, glyphs or keys is always controversial.
09:57]  well, someone has to go and do it
09:58]  hehe
09:58]  doy: yes, and his changes are good
09:58]  -- Press RETURN to compile 46eeaea -- vetos?
09:58] * by has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.)
09:59] * by_ has joined ##crawl-dev
09:59] * ChanServ sets mode: +v by_
09:59]  I recommend not asking before making controversial changes
09:59]  it saves a lot of time
09:59]  yes
09:59]  hehe, elly
09:59] * by_ is now known as by
09:59]  funny, Terminal.app died badly
10:01]  Ammo of dispersal/reaping/penetration auto-ids, even if it doesn't do anything (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=553) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid
10:01]  Speaking of controversial changes, what's up with the AC/EV overhaul?
10:02]  oh, btw, auto-id... I saw a few "throws a glowing dart at you" and on the bottom it was just a "dart", but picking it up it turned on "glowing" again
10:02]  rax, it was pushed so silently, it took me a day to notice it
10:02]  rax, so, indeed, a very well done controversal change.
10:02]  Oh so it got coded in secret. OK, cool.
10:02]  elly: better to seek forgiveness than ask permission?
10:02]  no
10:02]  better to do it, then revoke commit access for people that disagree ;)
10:03]  How long ago did that go in?
10:03]  nah.. not secret - even I saw greensnark announcing it in here
10:03]  Date:   Sat Jan 23 20:07:12 2010 +0530
10:03]  yesterday morging, rax
10:03]  *morning
10:03]  it's the first part of the overhaul, right?
10:03]  Oh OK. Huh. Who wrote it? 
10:04]  greensnark 
10:04]  .
10:04]  Eronarn: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
10:04]  Oh! Then it's fine. I trust greensnark implicitly. :)
10:04]  !messages
10:04]  (1/1) Twinge said (8h 20m 10s ago): I didn't start on corpse weights yet, no.  Not interesting enough to jump on rapidly, and I was waiting to hear what you had in mind first
10:05]  !tell Twinge What I want to do is: come up with a list of properties that need fixing, and do them all at once. For example, insubstantiality, weight, size, speed, damage. Saves tedium of reviewing monster list for minor things.
10:05]  Eronarn: OK, I'll let Twinge know.
10:05]  *** Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2707-g46eeaea (16.2) - The first iteration of the AC/EV overhaul! ***
10:05]  a bit late - but.. better than nothing ;)
10:06]  EV can be quite a large number now, right?
10:07]  rax: it's been in discussion for at least a few months
10:07]  rax: we just got the details worked out last weekend, finally
10:08]  Zaba_: yes, we discussed this a bit, but it will be okay for 0.6. Lets people appreciate the powa of the EV!
10:08]  maybe someone could do an information post about AC/EV change on the wordpress?
10:08]  rax: incidentally, I read your email on the AC changes (and on Lair:8) just now again :)
10:08]  Zaba_: also, you listed some 0.6-relevant issues ----> wiki page!
10:09]  dpeg: I don't even remember it at this point.
10:09]  did I?
10:09] * Zaba_ is now known as Zaba
10:10]  I remember getting nothing but radio silence when I brought it up a while ago, and so it fell under my attention threshhold.
10:10] * hashc has quit IRC ("Leaving")
10:10]  It took so long because first of all, no proper dev seemed to be interesting in taking care of it (I asked several times); then I got Samuel (DrPraetor) interested. He did not write code, but he thought about the whole thing and came up with really good ideas. Then we discussed these and syllogism amazingly wrote a spreadsheet and then greensnark nailed it down.
10:10]  *interested even
10:11]  Spriggan Warper opens first door, gets Lua error about god_hates_butchery (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=554) by ekolis
10:11]  oh, source/dat got cleaned up, nice
10:12]  dpeg: Did all of this happen here and I just missed it due to grad school apps?
10:14]  so lemuel really thinks that players will switch from heavy armour to light armour to do swamp?
10:15] * Giomancer has joined ##Crawl-Dev
10:15]  rax: some on c-r-d, some on wiki, some in here
10:15]  *nods* Well, I'll catch it next time, hopefully. 
10:16]  rax: all over the place!
10:16]  cbus: no, he thinks that heavy armour users should be have a harder swamp
10:16]  Ew, there's rax on the floor?
10:16]  Get a mop! D:
10:17]  rax: but with the AC bit on the way, there is finally an end in sight
10:17]  dpeg, he said that heavy armour users might switch
10:17]  dpeg, will there be more MDFi deaths in 0.6?
10:17]  cbus: well, I am not so sure about that
10:17]  Mostly I am sad that I was not in the loop; I had hoped to work on it. But if I missed it, it is likely that I did not have the time to follow it anyway.
10:18]  rax: it's hardly final!
10:18]  rax: I am sorry, you made a very busy impression. I would still love to do fancy Lair endings with you.
10:19]  Eronarn: Yes, and I might even take a bit to playtest, but it's now much further into thesis time than it was when I first brought it up.
10:19]  dpeg: That's still on my long-term task list.
10:19]  rax: the Lair will patiently wait for you (us=)
10:20] * Disconnected
10:20] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev
10:20] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev
10:20] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl (new and improved! and possibly buggy...  let doy know) | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."'
10:20] * Set by sorear on Sun Jan 24 22:31:51
10:21]  personally I don't have enough imagination to imagine what could be put in a lair ending vault
10:24]  Zaba: A forest!
10:24]  swamp already has plenty of trees, though
10:25] * dpeg sends Zaba some fantasy.
10:25]  Underground lake, caverns, ruined city, all kinds of things could be down there.
10:26]  lake with island with lake
10:26] * dpeg has quit IRC ("Bread!")
10:26]  I mean, not quite at the bottom, but almost at the bottom, you've got a giant pit of slimes. And before that, a thriving naga community.
10:27]  oh, that sounds delicious :)
10:28]  Warning: Crawl encountered errors during startup:
10:28]  Unknown monster: "_" (~/.crawlrc:511)
10:29]  when i start a new game on CDO :o
10:29]  The altar hits!
10:29]  probably from the glyph remappints
10:29]  remappings
10:29]  are you using the file that remaps monsters to their old glyphs?
10:30]  mon_glyph=_:$ <-
10:30]  nope
10:30]  that's line 511
10:30]  ah yeah
10:30]  i think i stole massive chunks from someone else's rc
10:31]  is it maybe "feature=_:$" ?
10:31]  hrm
10:31]  what is that supposed to be doing
10:31]  but why would you want the temple to look like money?
10:31]  no
10:31]  i believe it remaps shadows to $
10:31]  _ should mean a glyph of space
10:31]  MarvinPA: yeah, that's weird d:
10:31]  oh well, i removed that line :P
10:31]  might be something due messed with?
10:32] * scarf|away is now known as scarf
10:33]  he removed the shadow non-glyph, yes
10:34]  ah ok, that'd explain it then i guess
10:34]  shadows are on p now, right?
10:34]  yes
10:34]  cool
10:36]  ha! I'll watch some serious :D
10:38] * Disconnected
10:41] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev
10:41] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev
10:41] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl (new and improved! and possibly buggy...  let doy know) | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."'
10:41] * Set by sorear on Sun Jan 24 22:31:51
10:44] * Disconnected
10:56] * Attempting to rejoin channel ##crawl-dev
10:56] * Rejoined channel ##crawl-dev
10:56] * Topic is 'DCSS development channel! | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl (new and improved! and possibly buggy...  let doy know) | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/ | <@dpeg> "Look, Ceasar, I bought a new broom."'
10:56] * Set by sorear on Sun Jan 24 22:31:51
11:02] * Twinge has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
11:06]  Make vampire blood bottling an 'a'bility, and always let them butcher with 'c' (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=555) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid
11:09]  anyone have logs for the past couple days?
11:10]  why do those mantis links never work for me :/
11:10]  need to look up some things, but apparently my client mysteriously stopped logging for a bit
11:10]  you probably need to cut off the trailing bracket, eith
11:10]  oh right, duh =p
11:10]  i always do :(
11:10]  !setlog doy=on
11:10]  sorry, forgot to do that
11:10]  i wish i could get my client to ignore them
11:10]  no idea how though
11:10]  d:
11:11]  strange how it ignores the first bracket fine
11:11]  not that strange
11:11]  yeah, well i guess it starts parsing it as a link at "http"
11:11]  ( isn't valid before 'http', but ) is valid as part of a url path
11:11]  right, that
11:12]  whereas the space implies that the url is definitely over
11:12]  the best solution would be for the bot to add a space before closing the bracket! :P
11:12]  or fix your client d:
11:12]  or that :(
11:13]  although you said yourself that the ) could be valid!
11:13]  so maybe it's everyone else's clients that are wrong!
11:13]  it could be, but it rarely is
11:13]  "anything that could be valid" would make parsing out links really annoying in lots of cases
11:13]  trailing punctuation, etc
11:13]  heh, true
11:14]  doy: I do, though a bit spotty with my ISP disconnects.  But I thought the channel was publicly logged anyway?
11:14]  Twinge_: yes, by me
11:14]  (:
11:14]  Oh, hah
11:14]  but my logging somehow got turned off for a day or two
11:14]  ok, brb and I'll send what I have
11:14]  thanks